How About A Fresh Start???

Crossbow Hunting

Moderators: Bill T, Excalibur Marketing Dude

Hi5
Posts: 1235
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:56 pm
Location: Manitoba

How About A Fresh Start???

Post by Hi5 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:13 pm

String "jumping" or "ducking"is a serious subject.

We should be able to discuss it without getting ourselves tied into knots, carrying on like a Taliban homecoming parade.

Can we agree on certain basic facts, and take the discussion from there?

I'll offer some "facts" which I think are facts..

1. it's human nature to make excuses. Someone who misses a shot at game would rather say that his target "jumped the string" or "ducked" than admit he was excited and simply made a bad shot.

2. The human tendency to make excuses can possibly explain at least some of the instances where it was claimed that a deer "jumped" or "ducked" the string. So, it may not be as commonplace as some might think if they are crediting every claim as being factual.

3.The speed of sound at 68F is 1125 feet per second, according to Wikipedia.

4. The slowest bow and arrow combination in common use would perform at about 300 feet per second, the fastest at about 400 feet per second. An arrow slows as it travels, but for easy math, let's assume it remains at a constant speed.

5. When the bow fires, a sound is made. The sound and the arrow both travel toward the deer. At the moment when the sound reaches the deer, the arrow will also have travelled some distance. That means that when the deer actually hears the sound of the bow, there is an arrow already part way to the deer.

Now here's where I want to hand off to the smart guys who paid attention in math class.

a. Assuming a deer is 25 yards from the shooter, how close is the arrow to the deer when the sound reaches the deer with a 300fps arrow? 400fps arrow? How much time does a deer have to react to the sound of the shot? 300 fps arrow? 400 fps arrow?

b. Make it 50 yards from the deer to the shooter, please.

6. When the sound reaches the deer, what process takes place? Before the deer reacts, it has to recognize that a threat has arisen, and analyze the level of threat. Not every sound is a threat. Before a deer "jumps" or "ducks" the string, the threat has to be one that requires instant, emergency, flight. Even so, the deer has to be able to decide which direction to flee. To a deer that is already aware of a high threat level and knows the source, that may require very little time, but even so, some processing time is required. Thought does not instantly transform into action.

Can we carry on from here in a civil manner?
"Gun Control Laws"--trying to nag criminals into submission.

User avatar
BrotherRon
Posts: 1785
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:47 am
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by BrotherRon » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:25 pm

well... sound travels at over 767 mph... or 1,125 fps. :mrgreen:

:lol:
Matrix 310/330 Snuffy II~ Hawke XB30 Pro SR ~TT~Tombstone Case.
36" All Weather Tactical Case. Danny Miller Top Mount Quiver
Strings by Boo ~ 8ptbuk..
http://www.freewebs.com/kingdomushers/
Matthew 25:50 & 51

dutchhunter
Posts: 1804
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:20 am
Location: ontario

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by dutchhunter » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:13 pm

I tested this buy putting a target next to the barn wall and stood behind the wall well dad shot the bow. I could not be live how much time it took for the arrow to thud the target after I heard the bow go off. A real eye opener for sure
addicted to canadian beaver

User avatar
BrotherRon
Posts: 1785
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:47 am
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Contact:

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by BrotherRon » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:42 pm

dutchhunter wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:13 pm
I tested this buy putting a target next to the barn wall and stood behind the wall well dad shot the bow. I could not be live how much time it took for the arrow to thud the target after I heard the bow go off. A real eye opener for sure

Yup.. plenty of time for a mature buck to completely turn around before your arrow gets there. I have witnessed how fast a buck can spin around twice. Once I had a nice 8 pointer spin around so fast I thought he sucked his head in and poked it out the other end- luckily I hadn't released my arrow yet. On the other occasion a buddy took a shot at a deer at 40 yards. The deer was walking with a perfect shot just behind the left front shoulder... when we retrieved the deer we found that the arrow had gone in just behind the right shoulder. :shock:
Matrix 310/330 Snuffy II~ Hawke XB30 Pro SR ~TT~Tombstone Case.
36" All Weather Tactical Case. Danny Miller Top Mount Quiver
Strings by Boo ~ 8ptbuk..
http://www.freewebs.com/kingdomushers/
Matthew 25:50 & 51

sproulman
Posts: 1601
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:10 pm
Location: PA WILDS AREA

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by sproulman » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:09 pm

me on too what may be happening with Bucks 14 pointers with 24 inch spreads jumping string vrs 6 pointers with 17 inch spreads..It the electronic waves do to 24 inch spreads when my arrow is shot never thought about that ?

Smaller horn spreads do not receive signal waves
as good! 8)
Last edited by sproulman on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
one shot scott
Posts: 6766
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:20 pm
Location: Wmu 87. Ontariooh ohh

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by one shot scott » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:32 pm

I aint ready to discuss Deer that duck or get goosed by a 380fps arrow shot from 50yards since I am still shocked at the claim that bears prefer to snack from lumpy Pampers. I have seen with my own eyes from 20 yards that they seek out Huggies. I aint talking about a tender snuggle either.
*thumbhole vixen*original relayer*y25relayer*matrix380-
867-5309

User avatar
Species8472
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:16 am
Location: WMU 82a, Ontario

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by Species8472 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:00 am

Hi5 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:13 pm


Now here's where I want to hand off to the smart guys who paid attention in math class.

a. Assuming a deer is 25 yards from the shooter, how close is the arrow to the deer when the sound reaches the deer with a 300fps arrow? 400fps arrow? How much time does a deer have to react to the sound of the shot? 300 fps arrow? 400 fps arrow?

b. Make it 50 yards from the deer to the shooter, please.

As requested, please note I added a few more scenarios.

Also ** refers to distance the bolt is from the deer at the moment the string sound arrives at the deer.

Image
Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil.

-The Iron Code of Druss the Legend

User avatar
elkaholic
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:27 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by elkaholic » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:30 am

just asking - great time frame chart by the way -- guessing its any weight object

what is the weight of the bolt /w broadhead ? doesn't adding a few grains changes everything 100 gr broadhead verses 125 gr or 150 gr ?

18 ' bolt vrse 22" bolt

It all adds up! and slows down time of travel or Am I wrong

I know it minimal
Last edited by elkaholic on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Smong2000
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:21 pm

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by Smong2000 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:49 am

Great table, thanks! Pretty eye opening and gives a clear picture of what can happen. I am always amazed when we put a camera at the target and record some shots. Some say wow it gets there fast and some see the same recording and say they're surprised how long it takes... :lol:

User avatar
nchunterkw
Posts: 1990
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Wake Forest, NC

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by nchunterkw » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:26 am

Need to modify the chart to include how long it takes a deer to react after it hears the shot. It is not zero. Then their reaction is to "drop" to spring load their legs to run/jump/spin whatever. This is the very large and dominating variable to these equations.

Deer also have phenomenal eyesight and have almost 200 degree peripheral vision. IMO if you are on the ground there is no doubt that they see the limbs move and see the arrow coming. That all travels at the speed of light which (for our purposes) would be instantaneous compared to the speed of sound. Still guys routinely kill deer with arrows going 250fps at 30 yds.

So what are we trying to get out of this thread? The math is all there, but since we are deaing with animals each reaction is different and the math doesn't always apply. For example, I contend that a deer will react quite violently to a noise 20 yds away, while it may just lift its head to look in that direction if the noise is 50yds away.

As an example....
I missed a deer Sunday night at 32yds. I guessed the distance as 35yds and centered the deer between what I thought was my 30 and 40 yard reticles. Arrow went harmlessly over its back and it never moved until the arrow hit the small trees beyond it. Turns out I messed up and used the 40 and 50 yd reticles like an idiot (insert argument for a single reticle scope here). Just glad it was a clean miss (found the arrow for confirmation - clean as a whistle)
Keith
"Remember...always drink upstream from the herd."

Micro, Vortex
RamCat, Slick Trick, Magnus
Black Eagle Executioners & Zombies, Easton FMJs
2" Trueflight Feathers, DeerBoyArchery Strings
deerboyarchery@gmail.com
<{{{><

sproulman
Posts: 1601
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:10 pm
Location: PA WILDS AREA

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by sproulman » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:27 am

nchunterkw wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:26 am
Need to modify the chart to include how long it takes a deer to react after it hears the shot. It is not zero. Then their reaction is to "drop" to spring load their legs to run/jump/spin whatever. This is the very large and dominating variable to these equations.

Deer also have phenomenal eyesight and have almost 200 degree peripheral vision. IMO if you are on the ground there is no doubt that they see the limbs move and see the arrow coming. That all travels at the speed of light which (for our purposes) would be instantaneous compared to the speed of sound. Still guys routinely kill deer with arrows going 250fps at 30 yds.

So what are we trying to get out of this thread? The math is all there, but since we are deaing with animals each reaction is different and the math doesn't always apply. For example, I contend that a deer will react quite violently to a noise 20 yds away, while it may just lift its head to look in that direction if the noise is 50yds away.

As an example....
I missed a deer Sunday night at 32yds. I guessed the distance as 35yds and centered the deer between what I thought was my 30 and 40 yard reticles. Arrow went harmlessly over its back and it never moved until the arrow hit the small trees beyond it. Turns out I messed up and used the 40 and 50 yd reticles like an idiot (insert argument for a single reticle scope here). Just glad it was a clean miss (found the arrow for confirmation - clean as a whistle)
I do not use the Reticles that mistake was gone LONG AGO :wink: ..Sight in dead at 30 yds using the main Reticle ,drops 3 inchs at 35 and 5or6 at 40 yds ..no shots over 40 yds ..

Your miss is main reason most miss in my area od pa on deer I sight in bows and a lot of folks use the wrong reticle even while I am there you can imagine what happens when they get excited..

Make life easy use only 20 yd main Reticle and its kill ..

User avatar
nchunterkw
Posts: 1990
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Wake Forest, NC

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by nchunterkw » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:19 pm

Just a dumb mistake on my part. Been hunting a long time and don't get overly excited too much. That wasn't it. Just lined up the wrong ones..... :roll: I like the accuracy of the multi-reticle.....when I use the right one! :mrgreen:
Keith
"Remember...always drink upstream from the herd."

Micro, Vortex
RamCat, Slick Trick, Magnus
Black Eagle Executioners & Zombies, Easton FMJs
2" Trueflight Feathers, DeerBoyArchery Strings
deerboyarchery@gmail.com
<{{{><

sproulman
Posts: 1601
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:10 pm
Location: PA WILDS AREA

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by sproulman » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:57 pm

Still cannot understand why we need to use the other Reticles out to 40 yds?20 yds I am 1 inch high ,30 dead ,35 maybe 3 inchs low and 40 yds maybe 5 inchs low ..I could see it out at 50 yd shot but no way that is happening ...

place the main Reticle behind shoulder and Buck is history..

maybe someone can chime in and say this is why i use all those Reticles ?

janesy
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:20 pm
Location: Beavertown. Ont

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by janesy » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:20 pm

Sproul I have this conversation with guys all the time, specifically with coyote rifles. Why would you want to mentally adjust your scope point of aim if you don't have to. I think this all came about with the general public being introduced to MilDots. Show me one person who can actually use a MilDots setup in a typical hunting environment (who doesn't have extensive sniper training, and isn't hunting goats on the next mountain) and I'll try to learn again. The second I figured out that I can be 1H@100, 0@200 and -3@300 and all I have to do is make sure the lines cross at the right spot, I had my huge Burris sent back and the MilDots replaced with fine plex . Go ahead play Pacman with a deer in the background .

Anyhow, back to jumping strings
Matrix 355 (sold :( )
Micro-Mod 360
Micro 315 fully jambed!
It so hard to choose... Just get one of everything.

janesy
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:20 pm
Location: Beavertown. Ont

Re: How About A Fresh Start???

Post by janesy » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:21 pm

Double post. +1 for my post count, sorry
Matrix 355 (sold :( )
Micro-Mod 360
Micro 315 fully jambed!
It so hard to choose... Just get one of everything.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: alanr, Bing [Bot], gmo, Google [Bot], mr meat and 33 guests