Another look at 100 yard shooting

Crossbow Hunting

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SEW
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Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by SEW » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:03 pm

This subject has gone on for years but often prejudices , etc have been the primary objection to longer range vertical or horizontal long range shooting and especially hunting. A person can state that “archery has ALWAYS been a short range sport”, etc but that’s just an opinion or conviction but not a quantifable fact. A countering example can be the usage of smokeless muzzleloading using 40,45 cal barrels shooting sabotless at 2800+’/sec with well built guns. At competitions , it’s common to have 300 yd sub 1 1/2” 3-5 shot groups. With such a MLer shooting a near 0.400BC bullet at 2900’/sec with an 8-32X high level scope, a 300 yd deer shot is a slam dunk : yet, many will state that MLing is a short range sport. Not those MLers!
Having just finished my 61st year of bow hunting (I still use a vertical recurve in addition to my Excaliburs), have some thoughts to share.

Except for the very small percentage, deer hunting @ 100 yds is not advisable. I don’t consider myself normally in that percentage.

Here are some beliefs I hold.

1) Deer movement can be fairly predictable. A relaxed deer lowering its head to feed with its head turned away from a shooter will virtually never move its body during the arrow flight, regardless of how long that flight might be (<1 sec). I think a student of deer movement can pretty well overcome this obstacle.

2) Ducking the arrow or string jumping is a non-factor for shots >30-40 yards, IMO. At 60 yards, they’ll just stand and look in that direction if they do anything at all.

3) Arrow noise. Arrows can be very quiet and can be very noisy. I make mine very quiet. Helical, large profile feathers or light (thin) vanes and large vented broadheads can sound like a freight train. Stiff, low profile, offset vanes and certain low profile fixed or certain expandible broadheads can be virtually silent.

4) Xbow noise. At 40+ yards, tends to freeze the deer in place. At 60+ yards, virtually a non-factor.

5) High winds. Not good at 50-60 yds+ but can be well managed with practice out to there and beyond. Definitely range limiting.

6) Low wind. Not as much effect as many think. Hours of practice, intentionally shooting in the wind helps.

7) Shooting rests. I do all my arrow work ups and sighting off a benchrest set up. Then in my blinds, shoot off a monopod, and out of my tree stands, a gun rest. It’s a must to practice this way. These two rests are not benchrest set ups. They need practice to see how well you can really shoot off them.

8) Range estimation. This is THE problem for everyone. From the least to most experienced shooter/hunter. At ranges of 80+ yards , even 2 yds off will cause a bad hit. At near 100 yards, 1 yard makes a big difference. We want the flattest trajectory possible or practical. Very high BC arrows (low drag) going as fast as possible with the highest power scope setting we can use. Anyone wanting to hunt long range needs to consider an Optimizer/ great rifle scope. I want a minimum of 8x , preferably 10-12.

9) Range estimation again. Unless you’re hunting over bait that you have meticulously measured, long range xbow hunting just is risky at best. Trajectory and range estimation will cause major problems. There’s just no leeway for error. This is the problem as I see it. My xbows ( 2 M405s, BD400, M380) are incredibly accurate but much slower than the 425+’/sec xbows. They have an advantage! They do increase the “max ethical range”.

10) I do long range, xbow hunt varmints. I hate bobcats and coyotes!! They are smaller, and more prone to try to move out of an arrow’s way. Hunting them at longer ranges can greatly hone our deer hunting skills.

11) I have to consciously resist aiming at the center chest of a deer. It’s just hard for me to aim at the lower 1/4th like I should. I’ve noticed that as the range to the game increases whatever it is, aiming for the center becomes harder for me not to do. Maybe others experience this too.

12) FORGET any concerns about lessened energy at range. Arrows slow much less than many realize. Energy reduction at distant ranges is not very much less than at release. I consider energy loss with range, a non-factor.

13) When all of these factors are put together, it is reasonable to conclude, IMO, that virtually anyone’s maximum ethical range will be well below 100 yards, except for the very rare exception. Practice on those stinking coyotes!

14) My background is of a very analytical nature. Prejudices such as , I’ve always believed, I’ve always heard, common sense dictates, etc have no place in establishing facts and givens. Empirical approaches are far more meaningful. This is what I’ve tried to do.

15) Give additional factors you think both pro and con.

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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by dfinley » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 pm

Archery hunting is about getting up close and personal with your prey. If you want a 100 yard shot get a rifle. Even at the present state of the art, the chances of wounding an animal are too high no matter what the skill level. Why wound a deer just to prove a point... If you want to shoot at still targets fine, yes cross bows are that accurate enough but it takes the arrow too long to go 100 yards. Now if a crossbow could shoot faster than the speed of sound, I'm ok with 100 yard shots. However, at this speed regulatory bodies will want to look at crossbows as firearms and you can say goodbye to crossbows in the archery season.

In Illinois we just got crossbows legal in the entire archery season. I'm concerned though, because for some time now the crossbow industry has been making the bows smaller and faster, to the point they are looking like rifles. I think the industry is pushing the crossbow too far. Yes make crossbows more accurate, quieter, smaller but we need to be careful not to make them too fast and powerful. Ideally they should be equivalent to vertical bows but we are way past that even now..

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janesy
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by janesy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:01 pm

When you wound your next deer just remember it already has a 100 yard head start on you. Good luck to you.
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by LongCarbine » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:13 pm

I shoot a lot out to 80 yards . I felt I was good enough to extend my deer shooting range to 60 yards for this last year . I had a very big 4 x 5 muledeer ranged at 75 yards . He milled around for 1/2 hour as far out as 100 but never closer than 75. I knew that the tip of my bottom post hit dead on at 70 yards ,I had a steady hold off my bi-pod the wind was dying down to almost nothing. I did not take the shot . The next day I put the target out by camp at 75 yards . first shot was 1 1/2 low and 2 inches to the left. Next one hit at 9 o"clock on the bulls-eye next one took one vane of that one. All 3 would of gotten me a 190 plus Mulie . I do not regret not taking that shot. Just to many things can go wrong .Heck they go wrong at 20 yards . I'm not telling anyone how far is to far, Each has to judge for themselves . Like I said I shoot a lot and 60 is my limit . A live deer is not a bag target in your back yard.
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by SEW » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:39 pm

janesy wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:01 pm
When you wound your next deer just remember it already has a 100 yard head start on you. Good luck to you.

Except for the very small percentage, deer hunting @ 100 yds is not advisable. I don’t consider myself normally in that percentage.

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janesy
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by janesy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:12 pm

SEW wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:39 pm
janesy wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:01 pm
When you wound your next deer just remember it already has a 100 yard head start on you. Good luck to you.

Except for the very small percentage, deer hunting @ 100 yds is not advisable. I don’t consider myself normally in that percentage.
No dount it can be done. I wouldnt even consider it.
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by Stab 'em » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:44 pm

You are spot on with the thoughts on a relaxed deer looking away or down at the shot. If you look at a majority of deer "jumping the string" videos, they are watching the arrow or bolt coming at them, and they have been alert as well. They are watching and trying to duck that projectile coming at them just as you would duck something coming at you in a threatening manner; deer eyes hone in on unnatural (man-made) flourecents and see them as a threat. All my arrow's and bolts are all black just for this reason.

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racking up points
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by racking up points » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:41 pm

Stab 'em wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:44 pm
You are spot on with the thoughts on a relaxed deer looking away or down at the shot. If you look at a majority of deer "jumping the string" videos, they are watching the arrow or bolt coming at them, and they have been alert as well. They are watching and trying to duck that projectile coming at them just as you would duck something coming at you in a threatening manner; deer eyes hone in on unnatural (man-made) flourecents and see them as a threat. All my arrow's and bolts are all black just for this reason.
Deer are essentially colour blind, (they only see blue the same way we do),which is why we can wear hunter orange and not get busted. I think you’re overthinking your vane choice...
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SEW
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by SEW » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:22 pm

" Yes make crossbows more accurate, quieter, smaller but we need to be careful not to make them too fast and powerful. Ideally they should be equivalent to vertical bows "

This is just what Excalibur has done. The Assassin. I like this company. Obviously, I have 4 of them.

I think an objective reading of my entire thread starter would result in an understanding that I believe 100 yard deer hunting with a xbow is not advisable. However, I tried to use facts to arrive at this conclusion, not age old sayings, emotions, etc.

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longbow joe
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by longbow joe » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:10 am

Agreed sew on your post. One time when l was 18 and cocky l took about a 80 yard shot at a big 8 point in a cut cornfield with my longbow l put a 200 grain rothaar snuffer thu his ears and dropped him like putty....... Great l was estatic over my "bowmanship" but 30 some years later l look at the mounted head in my office and am still proud of him .......but in the back of my mind l know what an ass l was taking such a shot.we all know l wasnt shooting for his head... My point is l guess we all have to test our limits its just human nature and maturing as a hunter. I have and learned from it .Sometimes l actually put myself in places where l cant shoot more than 40 yards. Lol.cause deep down joe still thinks he is still 18.
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by Stab 'em » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:25 am

racking up points wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:41 pm
Stab 'em wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:44 pm
You are spot on with the thoughts on a relaxed deer looking away or down at the shot. If you look at a majority of deer "jumping the string" videos, they are watching the arrow or bolt coming at them, and they have been alert as well. They are watching and trying to duck that projectile coming at them just as you would duck something coming at you in a threatening manner; deer eyes hone in on unnatural (man-made) flourecents and see them as a threat. All my arrow's and bolts are all black just for this reason.
Deer are essentially colour blind, (they only see blue the same way we do),which is why we can wear hunter orange and not get busted. I think you’re overthinking your vane choice...
Here's one video of a deer reacting to the arrow with bright vanes clearly coming at him.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/check-out-this-bucks-reaction-after-getting-drilled-with-arrow/amp/

Timbrhuntr
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by Timbrhuntr » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:48 am

Maybe its just me but it looks like that deer doesn't move until the arrow is going through it ! Pretty amazing to catch that on video though.

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racking up points
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by racking up points » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:19 pm

Stab 'em wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:25 am
racking up points wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:41 pm
Stab 'em wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:44 pm
You are spot on with the thoughts on a relaxed deer looking away or down at the shot. If you look at a majority of deer "jumping the string" videos, they are watching the arrow or bolt coming at them, and they have been alert as well. They are watching and trying to duck that projectile coming at them just as you would duck something coming at you in a threatening manner; deer eyes hone in on unnatural (man-made) flourecents and see them as a threat. All my arrow's and bolts are all black just for this reason.
Deer are essentially colour blind, (they only see blue the same way we do),which is why we can wear hunter orange and not get busted. I think you’re overthinking your vane choice...
Here's one video of a deer reacting to the arrow with bright vanes clearly coming at him.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/check-out-this-bucks-reaction-after-getting-drilled-with-arrow/amp/
Cool video, which proves nothing. I stand by my statement. The buck reacts as the arrow is through him. That buck could have been reacting to anything, and he certainly wasn’t jumping the arrow vanes. His body doesn’t even drop like string jumper would. I’ve heard of string jumping, but vane jumping just isn’t a factor. Remember, they’re colourblind. Let’s be serious...
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robertyb
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by robertyb » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:29 pm

The deer in that video was reacting to the sound of the shot way to late to do it any good. Perfect DL shot.
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Re: Another look at 100 yard shooting

Post by newbie » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:38 pm

racking up points wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:19 pm
Stab 'em wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:25 am
racking up points wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:41 pm


Deer are essentially colour blind, (they only see blue the same way we do),which is why we can wear hunter orange and not get busted. I think you’re overthinking your vane choice...
Here's one video of a deer reacting to the arrow with bright vanes clearly coming at him.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/check-out-this-bucks-reaction-after-getting-drilled-with-arrow/amp/
Cool video, which proves nothing. I stand by my statement. The buck reacts as the arrow is through him. That buck could have been reacting to anything, and he certainly wasn’t jumping the arrow vanes. His body doesn’t even drop like string jumper would. I’ve heard of string jumping, but vane jumping just isn’t a factor. Remember, they’re colourblind. Let’s be serious...
I agree with Racking. That deer was already looking toward the shooter. Most likely shooter made noise or deer caught his movement and it definitely didn't move until that arrow exited.
I have shot many deer that have been looking right at me and they couldn't get out of the way less then 30 yards fast enough even with my bright vanes.
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