Arrows and accuracy

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dfinley
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Arrows and accuracy

Post by dfinley » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:35 pm

Hi Everyone,
What is the best arrow to improve accuracy from a Matrix 380?
Is spine indexing worth the trouble?
I'd like to start using fixed blade broadheads and have tried the bolt cutters and they seem ok is there anything better? What about bisshop broadheads?
I'd also like to get my arrow weight above 450 grains to access some additional kinetic energy, quiet my bow and go easier on the limbs any ideas?

gerald strine
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Re: Arrows and accuracy

Post by gerald strine » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:50 pm

I would recommend you buy 2219 aluminum shafts Square them up with an arrow squaring tool , and then square the front and rear inserts and then fletch with blazer veins and use 150 grain slick trick cross bow fixed blade head works wonders out of my 350LE bow.
2219 are a heavy stiff shaft that pack a lot of energy.
Hunt eat sleep repeat.

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galamb
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Re: Arrows and accuracy

Post by galamb » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:23 pm

Recurve crossbows (apply) max energy to the arrow as soon as you pull the trigger unlike a compound which does so when the cam (kicks) over so both will benefit from slightly differently (designed) arrows.

Many Excalibur shooters who shoot something other than factory supplied arrows, whether on purpose or not, tend to shoot arrows with stiff spines and very high/extreme Front of Center (FOC) balance.

If you are looking to end up with a 450'ish grain combination you can use a lighter arrow with a heavier head or a heavier arrow with a lighter head. The heavier arrow will always be stiffer but will also move some of the total weight "behind" the center.

The addition of a lighted nock which is typically three times a heavy as a (regular) nock also moves the balance back on the shaft.

I have horsed around with dozens of shafts, inserts, nocks, vanes/feathers and head weights over the years and regardless of the combination I have consistently found that I get my most consistent points of impact from those with FOC's of 18% or greater.

It's tough to say using "X" arrow will do what you want because we all have our own (idea) of the actual performance we are looking for and at what distance and what kind of conditions.

I shoot Gold Tip arrows.

I prefer a lighter shaft (7.3 gpi) with a heavy insert (110 grains) and a 100 grain head which gives me about 400 grains (396) with an FOC over 20% and I don't shoot lighted nocks.

If I wanted to add 50 grains (to 450'ish) I would probably do it by increase the shaft weight to 8.5 gpi (20'ish more grains), adding an additional 10 or 15 grains to the insert and going with a 125 grain head which would finish up at 447 grains with 20% FOC.

But that's just "my answer" :)
Graham

Vix II, VixenMaster flemish/S5, 20" GT Laser II's - 100 gr Dead Ringer Stiletto II's (394 grains - 22.5% F.O.C.) @272 FPS

Bow River Archery 51# Summit TD Recurve, Beman Bone Collectors - 100 gr Rage 40KE (491 grains - 14.6% FOC) @148 FPS

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wildcatter
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Re: Arrows and accuracy

Post by wildcatter » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:59 pm

I've tried about every arrow and weight and found one thing, like galamb said, a recurve is a different animal, the instant stress when that trigger is released is what determines how much spine? The other tning OI have proven in the last 4 years with my 380's is they have to have more spine than my 350 or 330. The 330 is a very forgiving bow when it comes to spine. You can't skip with the 380's on up though, Zombie Slayers, and Spynal Tapps are requiered to get the best out of those bows.

I have tried doing everything and found only the Black Eagle closely spine matched and indexed to shoot this tight out 50 yards. I have had executioners matched as tight and indexed, and at 20 or 30 yards they seem great, get out to 40 and 50, or farther and they just can't keep up with the Zombie Slayers and Spynal Tapps,, By the way which are the same arrows, just different lables, and the Tapps are matched closer without having them matched. But either can be matched to the same precision and they are the same arrows.These were only 390 grains I think, I know they were under 400. At 50 yards, with tight matched and indexed spines, using a 92 grain insert, and 100 grain field point, all 5 shot withing 1/2" of the same POI. As those are 1.5" bulls and each one is in the bottom haqlf of the bull, 50 yards, and shot first light with wind flags to confirm my conditions.
Image

I also have played a lot with spine indexing and just fletch and shoot, I will assure you that you won't get 12 arrows hitting the same hole at 30 or 40 yards with un indexed arrows, but with close indexed Zomies, or Spynal Tapps you should have no trouble putting 10 to 12 out of a full dozen spine matched and indexed in the same hole with these two arrows. Executioners will not do it with the 380, even when I used a 100 grain point and 92 grain insert.

I like the higher foc, makes a big difference shooting in the wind and penetration even on bone is outstanding once you get uop over 440 grains, my target minimum. This is where the Zombies and Tapps really show there superiority, 2 years ago I drilled the biggest doe I've shot in 4 or 5 years with 542 grain arrow I made for shooting in heavy grass and light weeds around swamps. The doe was walking right at me on a path I let three smaller doe pass on earlier that morning, at 37yards she stopped, looked behind her a while, then took one step continuing and looked straight at me sitting there with the scope on her letting her close, and when she did, she stopped cold, dropped her head and stuck mthat neck straight out towards me! I knew I was busted and decided to test this 18" 110 grain insert with a 175 grain COC VPA riding out front and watched it hit her about 3" behind the jaw, she come off all 4's and did a long 180 and headed about 40 yards and rolled to a stop.

I looked all over for that lighted Spynal Tap and never found it, so I went to the doe where I found the entrancebut the only spot with blood on her. I threw the legs up and started to core the A Hole when I noticed a bump on the hip of her off rump from the side the arrow went in. Feeling around I could tell it was my broadhead. After field dressing her, and removing the arrow, it traveled over 16" down the neck, (pretty tough muscle) clipping the vertebra here and there, slide in aking the lung clipped the top of the liver and sliced a cut under the center of the spine crossing over the the right side and staying just above the gut bag and intestines, never cutting them riding the spine and and rib cage went into the right hop and shattered the hop joint stopping just under the hide!

This is them arrows before season with BH installed at 70 yards. This is all 4 arrows hitting within 1" of the same point of impact at 70 yards, pushing 285 grains on the front of the shaft, that pulls them rudders on the back to where they are pointed when they leave. You wont do that with a weaker spined, ar and arrow that is not spine matched and indexed, I've tried, trust me, it takes perfect arrows no matter how good the bow is!!
Image

I've tried a lot of arrows and even some Zombies that were not spine matched and indexed, I just cant any other arrows to shoot this tight, and when they are not indexed, you can forget everyone shooting to the same exact POI, rotating vanes get ya closer, but you wont get them this tight! It takes the stiffest shafts and close spine indexed the same to get these results in my 380's and 405's. even the shorter Micro's and Suppressors are just to much piundage to get optimum results with any arrow lighter spined than the two I use, Zombies and Spynal Tapps. Trust me, I'm a tightwad, I've tried, but I like shooting the best so this is all use in my heavy poundage recurves!
Hunt Hard or Stay Home!
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catclr
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Re: Arrows and accuracy

Post by catclr » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:30 pm

What does the COC stand for as looked at the VPA heads but don't see the COC?
Thanks
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xcaliber
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Re: Arrows and accuracy

Post by xcaliber » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:35 pm

Cut On Contact.
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catclr
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Re: Arrows and accuracy

Post by catclr » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:39 pm

xcaliber wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:35 pm
Cut On Contact.
Thanks, didn't think of that.
Matrix 355
DM Quiver Mount
Hawke XB1
DrStirrup 4x4 Kocker w/AMSTEEL Rope
DrStirrup Foot Stirrup
DrStirrup Bumpers
nchunterkw, davesonic444,Boo strings
FIXpandable 100 gr.
SPYNAL TAPP Shafts
Nufletch Ignitor's

SEW
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Re: Arrows and accuracy

Post by SEW » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:39 pm

The groups shown by Wildcater are outstanding considering the low power scope setting. Believe me, it’s easier with 8 power set on my 2-8 scope on my 405 or 36 power on my 380 benchrest setup.

dfinley
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Location: New Athens, IL

Re: Arrows and accuracy

Post by dfinley » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:20 am

Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I will try some of the stiffer spined arrows like zombie or spinal tap. I saw the comment about aluminum arrows but I a little biased against those because of bending problems. I guess I'll use up my diablo arrows that in my hands are good out to 40 yards or so and then buy some new arrows. The diablos are good enough for the way I hunt. I just think improving accuracy is a good practice.

I am noticing a lot of discussion on Youtube about heavier broadheads (200 - 600 grains) like Bishops and Grizzly stick.. Has anyone tried those and how do they work out of a crossbow..

I really enjoy this forum, lots of knowlegable folks that are willing to help..

Kind regards,
Don

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galamb
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Re: Arrows and accuracy

Post by galamb » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:08 pm

Depending on "what" you are hunting you don't often need to go greater than 125 grains - 150 if you are using them to get weight up front.

If you are hunting Elk or Moose - something with tough hide, tougher ribs, might clip a shoulder you would be better served with an "old school" traditional "sharpen yourself" 2 blade fixed (maybe with bleeder blades). If you fire a Zwicky Eskimo head and it clips a small rock or some gravel you hammer the point back into shape and touch it up with a stone. If you do that with just about any modern blade the thing evaporates into dozens of pieces.

A ton of weight "up front" does cause significant drop even over short distances. When I was fiddling with various arrows @ 25 yards an off the shelf Carbon Express Surge (now the Piledriver), with a 100 grain field point with a total weight of about 442 grains impacted 4" "higher" then a Horton Bone Collector shooting the same 100 grain field point and weighing over 10% "less", about 406 grains. The difference was the FOC because the (piledriver/surge) is a heavy stiff arrow (close to 14 grains per inch) but "lighter" up front while the Bone Collectors were lighter (about 8 gpi) but had 110 grain inserts.

Over greater distances the "nose down" trajectory would have a more profound effect on the drop.

So the answer is, there is no one size fits all answer that apply to the (average) situation, if there is such a thing. You really need to figure out what will work best for you based on what you will be hunting, under what conditions and at what (typical) distances.
Graham

Vix II, VixenMaster flemish/S5, 20" GT Laser II's - 100 gr Dead Ringer Stiletto II's (394 grains - 22.5% F.O.C.) @272 FPS

Bow River Archery 51# Summit TD Recurve, Beman Bone Collectors - 100 gr Rage 40KE (491 grains - 14.6% FOC) @148 FPS

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