Arrow testing Matrix

Crossbow Hunting

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SEW
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Arrow testing Matrix

Post by SEW » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:09 pm

I’ve set up my M380 just for testing various arrows at others request and for working on arrow design for myself. I want minimal fletching drag and minimal foc needed to keep tight groups out to 100 yds. If it shoots great at 100, it’ll shoot great at 60.

I took my M380 and added a few items. Airbrakes, full Dr Stirrup, 1.5# TT with contoured string holders , Optimizer, Weaver T-36 (36x target scope), Simms xbow stabilizer, 210g Boostring with silencers, shrink wrapped arrow hold down spring. Used on a Hart Windage adjustable front rest and a Protektor #13 rear bag and wind flags. Good hunting rig? No! Great arrow testor? Yes!

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janesy
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by janesy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:55 pm

Thats quite the rig
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Ekkie
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by Ekkie » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:23 pm

That scope looks like an aluminum baseball bat! :lol: Nice... looking forward to hearing about your testing results.

~E

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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by foofoo » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:44 am

now thats a scope! maybe just a bad photo but looks like the mount has run out and thrown the objective to one side of the riser more/? is that a screw on sun shade or part of the scope body?

SEW
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by SEW » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:58 am

Screw on sunshade. Will remove most of time. Yes, good observation on scope - bad picture.

I just want to see what's possible. Easiest way to get better groups at range - increase scope power. Simms had sent the stabilizer to test. It does work and is very suitable for this application.

I realize, this xbow is set up with serious overkill. I have the parts so why not. I have a # of arrows to test. Should be interesting. No ear plugs needed. Who says a recurve xbow can't be quiet?

LongCarbine
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by LongCarbine » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:00 am

Nice rig . Can't wait to see the results . With min drag and f.o. c will you be doing any testing w/ broadhead ? I have done some . Expandables seem to do alright but I could never get fixed to fly well with out brass inserts and a high helix on vanes , feathers an offset worked ok . I would like to know how your results turn out ( My testing was done at only 70 yards )
Jim
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xcaliber
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by xcaliber » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:33 am

That is one serious setup! I just gained a higher respect for your accuracy reviews!
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SEW
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by SEW » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:30 pm

Long Carbine,

Some fixed broadheads are more controllable than others. I always try to get the least foc that is accurate and the least drag that will adequately steer. The least foc and the least drag will give the arrow the highest ballistic coefficient, ie, flattest trajectory. More foc and more steering than needed does not hurt nor help accuracy but does cause more drop.
You virtually can’t get a more accurate set up than a 110g insert/100g point and helical Blazers on an 18” Zombie. It’ll shoot virtually any broadhead accurately. But, most of us don’t need that much foc nor vane drag.
The purpose of most of my arrow testing is to see how little foc and how little vane drag I can get that will still give optimal accuracy. Remember, more foc and more steering than needed won’t hurt accuracy, they will be accurate, just trajectory is hurt.
If you were to take a M350SE/LE (realizing it shoots 355-360/350g arrow) and a M380 and shot the traditional arrow as described out as above out of the 380 verses a 19” Zombie with 2 degree offset Blazers with a 50g insert/125g Schwacker out of the 350, the 350’s arrow trajectory would be significantly flatter.

Some fixed BHs just take a lot to steer whereas others (Slick Trick variants, Boltcutters) are easy.
Example a 150g Boltcutter, 50g inserts, offset Blazers or SK300s is as accurate as the same except 80g insert and helical Blazers. The latter drops much faster.

I am after the most accurate arrow but no more foc or fletching drag than needed in order to get the flattest trajectory.

Repetition is a rather crude means of stressing an idea, but sometimes is effective. My apologies for so much repetition.

Back strap
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by Back strap » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:18 pm

Repetitive or not. Keep it coming,some mighty fine informative reading.
Matrix 405// Twilight scope/ Vixen master string/ Munch mount/ aircurve 3 kwikee kwiver/ south shore archery 18 in spinal tapps/ plastic nock/ sk300 vanes/ 92 grain insert/100 grain ramcat. Huntin Fishin Lovin everyday. AKA-BUCKY

LongCarbine
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by LongCarbine » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:31 pm

Sew
Good stuff . My go to hunting arrow B.E Exc. 92 grain insert as tight of a twist that I can get on a blazer . With a Rage or Laser exp. out front . It flies great and bucks the wind as well as anything I have tried. But starts nose diving after about 55 yards out of my 355 and I think it will be worst out of my new 330 . I don't know if I would lighten up the front because of the winds in the mountains but less drag on the back end might be the ticket . Again looking forward ti your results.
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SEW
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by SEW » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:19 pm

I’ve found offset Blazers will control SFs, Rage, FOCs, etc very well without the additional drag of helical. I’m starting to do testing of offset, helical Blazers and another vane that is spins significantly more: in xwinds with field points, expandible practice heads(SF & Rage) and fixed broadheads (a variety).
I don’t necessarily believe that more helical makes for more accuracy across the board; but generally, controls a fixed BH better. But a FP or expandible may be shot more accurately with offset vanes.

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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by Boo » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:31 pm

LongCarbine wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:31 pm
Sew
Good stuff . My go to hunting arrow B.E Exc. 92 grain insert as tight of a twist that I can get on a blazer . With a Rage or Laser exp. out front . It flies great and bucks the wind as well as anything I have tried. But starts nose diving after about 55 yards out of my 355 and I think it will be worst out of my new 330 . I don't know if I would lighten up the front because of the winds in the mountains but less drag on the back end might be the ticket . Again looking forward ti your results.
I think that if you lighten up the front you will find less nose dive because of the lower FOC.
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by paulaboutform » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:56 am

Wow Steve, who knew I had a brother out there I didn't know about! :wink: .....nice!

Paul

SEW
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by SEW » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:52 am

Concerning twist vs accuracy.
Yesterday, I was shooting 3 different arrows:
1) 18”Zombies,26g insert, 170g FPs, 2 degree offset Blazers
2) 18” Zombies, 110/100g FP, Helical Blazers
3) 20” Executioners, 92g inserts, 100g FPs, a vane that creates 50% more spin than helical Blazers

I just had limited testing time, was setting up scope/Optimizer. Max testing distance was 40 yds. Today is to be very windy. Will test xwind differences at 50 and above yards if rain stays away.

Most accurate by far was #1 arrow set : 1/3” 3-shot groups. 36x scope really helps.
Next - #2
Last - #3

Yes, these were Executioners (0.001”), but this M380 is really attenuated. The more outboard Dr S limb dampeners, and the 210g string/silencers reduce launch stress on the arrow. I didn’t make these arrows nor have the components for doing so. There is a reason for Executioners vs Zombies. Would like to have the same vane setup on 18 & 20” Zombies to compare.

I’m occasionally asked to test arrow configurations. This one is ultimately to test the xwind effect on farious vane configurations and to see how spin rate affects xwind offset at range with fixed broadheads.

Something to think about: many years ago when bullet consistency/uniformity was much less than premium bullets today, high spin rates (fast twist barrels) often resulted in much larger groups than slow twist barrels produced. Now, with say an 80g Sierra Match King or even a 52g Amax or even a 40g NBT shot out of my 8 Twist 22-250 AK IMP at 3,350, 3,900,4,500’/sec respectively, will all shoot in the high 0.2s with a 3-shot group. But take a 55g Winchester PMP and shoot it at even 3700-3800 and it won’t even get a 1 1/2” gp @ 100 yds, but it will get about 0.7” at 100 yds out of my 14” twist, otherwise identical barrel.
The point of all this? An extremely consistent object spinning very fast wobbles very little and is more stable than a less consistent object spinning the same speed. A classic example is balancing tires, or to be even more extreme, rounding slightly out of round tires.

Just how consistent is the construction of our arrows? If they’re extremely consistent, more spin should not decrease accuracy, but if not, then less spin will be more accurate as was the case with the Winchester 55g PMP bullet. I think arrow consistency still has a ways to go.

A disclaimer: not all these thoughts are original from me. I don’t and can’t reinvent wheels. Opinions expressed here have come by observation, reading, reasoning, and from others - some of whom know infinitely more than I on this subject and are on this board.
Just something to think about. :)
Last edited by SEW on Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:06 am, edited 4 times in total.

SEW
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Re: Arrow testing Matrix

Post by SEW » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:52 am

Double post

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