Matrix 405 Issue

[strum]

G.K. Copy and paste this thread may help.

http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/phpBB2 ... bs#p493613

Thanks for the link...

Just swapped my limbs...One was marked 9.0 and the other one was marked as 9.5... Funny thing is the brace height seems almost perfect on either side of the rail now. Maybe off .02" according to my micrometer gauge. I realize this measurement is nothing to worry about but now I have to shoot it to see if the limb swap will make any difference..

BTW: does anyone know where I can get extra screws those two small brackets on top of the limbs next to the limb bolt screws.. I'd like to have a few extra.

I would call Miller for the extra screws.

[GrassyKnoll]

Well I called Danny Miller this morning to order a few things and to pick his brain about my experience.. Specifically the limb deflection issue... Told hid what was going on with my broad heads. His immediate answer was "It's" your tiller" What can I do about that. You need matched limbs was the answer....

It seems that with a set of limbs that are odd by .5 lbs is the norm at Excalibur

Well Excalibur is having me send it to Danny to figure out what is going on...

[Fred T]

Now you have me curious.After the deer season I'm going to remove my limbs and check the numbers.I have measured my tiller and it appears to be bang on.
I guess you have yet to try it with the limbs swapped?

[Excalibur Marketing Dude]

The deflection numbers are just a reference and I wouldn't loose a lot of sleep if your number are off by .5. We have a machine we use to make sure the tiller on the limbs are close. The machine has a tolerance level of at least .5 so your limbs can be identical but measured .5 different.

The funny thing is we have only used this machine for maybe 5-6 years, before that we just picked two limbs that looked close and colour and put the crossbow together. We didn't have much trouble with tiller back then either.

Fixed blade broadheads will always fly different than field points. You need to sight in using the broadhead to get pin point accuracy.

Peter

[GrassyKnoll]

Now you have me curious.After the deer season I'm going to remove my limbs and check the numbers.I have measured my tiller and it appears to be bang on.
I guess you have yet to try it with the limbs swapped?

I did switch limbs but it did not make a difference in that my bh's fly with my field points...

[Onetimeonly x-->]

Now you have me curious.After the deer season I'm going to remove my limbs and check the numbers.I have measured my tiller and it appears to be bang on.
I guess you have yet to try it with the limbs swapped?

I did switch limbs but it did not make a difference in that my bh's fly with my field points...

G.K. If it were me and this may be very well what you have planned? I would sight in with your broadheads and hunt the season out. After the season have Danny M. look at your bow. If you find that you cannot group your broadheads then let Danny look at it soon. The bow should function fine...go hunting, JMO.

[Kegbelly]

Well I called Danny Miller this morning to order a few things and to pick his brain about my experience.. Specifically the limb deflection issue... Told hid what was going on with my broad heads. His immediate answer was "It's" your tiller" What can I do about that. You need matched limbs was the answer....

It seems that with a set of limbs that are odd by .5 lbs is the norm at Excalibur

Well Excalibur is having me send it to Danny to figure out what is going on...

As it was explained to me, every bow has some degree of "tiller" because no two limbs are 100.000% identical. There will always be some small amount of variation between limbs. I have two Excal xbows and neither one has ever shot broadheads exactly to the same POI as field points... it's like switching ammo in a rifle and expecting them both to hit exactly alike. If it happens that way that's great, but that's the exception rather than the rule IMO. So most times you need to sight in to whatever ammo you hunt with, which would be your arrows and broadhead of choice. Tiller becomes a problem when your arrows strike the target at an angle rather than straight on. No mention of this so I take it that the only problem you have is broadheads hit differently than field points. That's normal. Sight in to your broadheads and hunt.

[GrassyKnoll]

The deflection numbers are just a reference and I wouldn't loose a lot of sleep if your number are off by .5. We have a machine we use to make sure the tiller on the limbs are close. The machine has a tolerance level of at least .5 so your limbs can be identical but measured .5 different.

The funny thing is we have only used this machine for maybe 5-6 years, before that we just picked two limbs that looked close and colour and put the crossbow together. We didn't have much trouble with tiller back then either.
xed blade broadheads will always fly different than field points. You need to sight in using the broadhead to get pin point accuracy.

Peter

Peter, thanks for your reply....

I understand what you are saying but I disagree that one cannot get fixed blade heads to shoot to the same poi as field points. I get my vertical bows to shoot my bh's and field points to the same spot all the time.

I had my Matrix 405 shooting to the same poi on the original limbs out to 50 yards in the "X' on a 5 spot blue face target with various BEE .001 arrows and my slick trick standards and field points..

Regarding the limb deflection and limb weight differences, I believe as a bow gets faster and faster it becomes even more critical that all components are matched equally. A limb that is biased more than the other will put more pressure on that side of the string and cause uneven forward pressure on the arrow as it travels forward..

Perhaps with the older and slower than the Matrix series of bows it was less critical that the limbs be matched equally, but as fast as the 380 and 405 shoot it just makes sense that the limbs should be matched evenly..

Not trying to argue here but it also makes no sense to me that if each limb is tested for deflection, rated individually and marked with a deflection rating why not pair them up evenly when building a bow..

here is a pic of the string sitting off the rail after the repair



following images and video is all before the limb splinter:

video of the Stick trick and Bee hitting where I sighted in with my field tips with the original limbs

http://youtu.be/OUrhmLKPX9I

Pics of my groups with field tips and broad heads before the repair





I'm only posting the pics to validate what I experienced before the splinter

[Excalibur Marketing Dude]

OK, there is an issue if the string is sitting off the deck like that. Either they are not properly seated or the limbs are twisted. Something is not right there. This is more of an issue than the .5 tiller difference.

I understand you are sending the crossbow to Danny, we will figure it out.

Peter

[GrassyKnoll]

Peter,
Yes it is going to Danny Miller. I hate to be a pain but I know how accurate it was out of the box and just know something is off now..

Thanks again,
Ed

[paulaboutform]

I'm sorry for stating the obvious but no disrespect intended. Have you tried removing the riser from the main frame, jiggling it a bit to make sure it's seated properly, and re attaching the riser. I've seen them put together tightly but not seated properly. Hopefully that's all it is and your string gets back on the rail. Good luck.

[Onetimeonly x-->]

I'm sorry for stating the obvious but no disrespect intended. Have you tried removing the riser from the main frame, jiggling it a bit to make sure it's seated properly, and re attaching the riser. I've seen them put together tightly but not seated properly. Hopefully that's all it is and your string gets back on the rail. Good luck.

X2 was thinking the same. Is your riser a tad lower then the mainframe...should be.

[GrassyKnoll]

I'm sorry for stating the obvious but no disrespect intended. Have you tried removing the riser from the main frame, jiggling it a bit to make sure it's seated properly, and re attaching the riser. I've seen them put together tightly but not seated properly. Hopefully that's all it is and your string gets back on the rail. Good luck.

Non taken..lol

I spent a good portion of the morning and afternoon troubleshooting the bow with another person on the phone from Excalibur yesterday and we tried this several times..

Check this out, if I take the bolts out of the rail and riser and just hold the two pieces together it will mate up to where the string rides the rail but once I tighten down the bolts the string lifts off the rail.. We tried it with just using one bolt at a time to see if it will stay on but it still lifts up off the rail.

Also from my understanding, the riser should sit on the rail pretty solid when the two are mated together. Mine has a little side to side play before the screws are tightened down.. Once tight there is no play at all..

I will add also that Excalibur's CS is fantastic.. I received numerous calls yesterday from a person there trying to help me out and follow up calls to see how I was making out... That is fantastic CS.. Thanks guys..

[Michiganhunter]

I went through somewhat the same thing with my 380 that you are going through with your bow regarding tiller. I sent mine to Danny and he fixed it perfect after replacing both limbs. While I was trying to diagnois the problem with the help of some good people on this site I did notice that during removal and reinstallation of the riser I could generate the same issue you are experiencing with the slight wobble and string off rail condition. there is what I call a keyway in the pocket that the rise sits in. If you are not pressing the riser rearward and down into that pocket before tightening the bolts it will not line up exactly and you will tighten the riser down before it is seated completely. It will be tight but because it is not seated completely into the key way( male on pocket and female on rail) you will have a string that sits above the rail and accuracy will be poor because of the miss alignment.

[Onetimeonly x-->]

I went through somewhat the same thing with my 380 that you are going through with your bow regarding tiller. I sent mine to Danny and he fixed it perfect after replacing both limbs. While I was trying to diagnois the problem with the help of some good people on this site I did notice that during removal and reinstallation of the riser I could generate the same issue you are experiencing with the slight wobble and string off rail condition. there is what I call a keyway in the pocket that the rise sits in. If you are not pressing the riser rearward and down into that pocket before tightening the bolts it will not line up exactly and you will tighten the riser down before it is seated completely. It will be tight but because it is not seated completely into the key way( male on pocket and female on rail) you will have a string that sits above the rail and accuracy will be poor because of the miss alignment.

Good info for everyone...thanks