My broadhead tipped bolts (were) all over the place (Update)

[cajuntec]

I came back and updated this post (please see my response on page 2 on 10/3/15), as my broadhead tipped bolts are now shooting great. Thanks for everyone's help!

Original message:

I'm shooting an Excalibur Axiom SMF, and using the Excalibur Firebolt bolts. It was recommended to me that I use a 150 grain head when I bought it. As 150's are difficult to find around here, I started looking around. I had some 125 grain Razorcaps that have the interchangeable ferrules, so I bought the 80 grain ferrules to turn them into 150's.

I'm shooting at 20 yards. My first broadhead tipped bolt went high and left. So I adjusted my scope. My next bolt went high and WAY right. Ok. I adjusted too much (I thought). So back down just a hair. Now I missed the target completely to the RIGHT of the target and my bolt went way down range (I retrieved it). That was odd, because I had adjusted the scope to make it go the other way. I'll save you the rest of a boring read as I went though a few dozen shots and adjustments. No two arrows flew anywhere close to the same, even when I didn't make adjustments.

I checked the scope - everything is nice and tight.

Loaded up some 150 grain field tip bolts. Bullseye on first shot. About an inch to the right on my second shot. Bullseye on third shot. About an inch to the left on my fourth shot. About an inch to the right on the fifth shot. Bullseye on sixth shot. I'm grouping well with them.

So now I know - It ain't the scope, and it ain't the crossbow (or the bolts). Its the broadheads.

So I came on here to see what everyone is shooting, and now I'm seeing a lot of you shooting 100 and 125 grain. So now I'm very confused.

What broadhead would you recommend, and what grain? I'm going to be hunting deer and pigs, so if there is a different recommendation for each, that's fine as well. I need to get this figured out fairly quick so I can order what I need and get it sighted in. Thanks in advance for any advice you can provide!

All the best,
Glenn

[8ptbuk]

Slicktrick standards , 100 or 125 grain with brass Inserts should do great .

[racking up points]

If you intend to use that arrow, get some brass inserts and you can shoot just about any head you want. As to your accuracy issues, I have never heard of a Razorcap broadhead, so I'm guessing they aren't top shelf heads. Maybe switching out the ferrules gave you the weight you wanted, but gave you a wobble that you didn't. Try spin testing them, any wobble and scrap them. I would also recommend ordering some custom arrows, those Firebolts leave a lot to be desired.

[cajuntec]

Razorcaps were made my NAP for a few years. I used them in my traditional archery, as they have a longer, slender profile (kind of a 3:1 profile that many trad archers liked). I think these are planing. Too much blade for this application.
All the best,
Glenn

[Tom]

Glen it sounds like it is the heads. If I understand what you did with your head correctly, that is probably the problem. It sounds like there is not a perfect mating surface with the new ferrules causing the tip of the head be "off axis" with the center axis of the arrow.

Here is an easy test. Do a spin test in the palm of your hand. Straighten out your hand to make it like a hard board, tip in palm, spin the arrow (straight vertical). You might be able to see a wobble (if there is a problem), but you should be able to feel a wobble.

If that is not the problem, do as others have said in other threads, select "1" arrow & mark the fletchings. Shoot that arrow a few times with the same fletch down, then try it again with another fletch down. Try all three fletching down and see if there is any consistency.

But I do feel it is an allinement issue.

Tom

[Pasidewinder]

I've not heard of razor caps, I have used the nap razorback broadheads. They are the ones that the blades are a "cartridge" and all three slide down onto the ferrule at tha same time and they spin on the ferule one everything is assembled.

If this type is what you have I tried them on my old ten point and I got the same rests you did, terrible flight.

I think it had to do with the blades spinning and planeing.

[galamb]

What arrows are you using?

While you are happy with your results at 20 yards with the field points, I personally wouldn't be - if they we all bulls or left an inch I would be "ok" with it, although your bow is capable of busting many bolts on top of each other @ 20 yards.

Where I would be concerned is with the 1" left, bull, 1" right - that's a 2" spread @ 20 which is "getting up there".

I buy my arrows (bolts) fletched and cut to length in dozen lots (currently shooting Gold Tips). I get the 110 grain inserts "loose" and glue them in "indexed" to the head that will go on that arrow - and always shoot "that" arrow with "that" head (I write a number on the cock fletch to track which arrow is what).

Then I shoot the dozen, with field points of the proposed broadhead weight and chart which shoots where in relation to the bull. Sometimes you get a bad arrow that just won't fly, so it gets culled as a "target only" arrow (or goes in the refletch pile to be worked on later).

I then try and get two groups of four arrows that "act the same" - I don't care if all of them "shoot left by an inch", as long as they consistently do that.

Those groups of four become my "hunting arrows" and I note the numbers I have put on them and keep them together.

(of course you could start with six arrows, a "typical box", and come up with the most consistently related four)

I then sight my scope for "those" arrows. They should all impact within the size of a silver dollar (loonie or toonie if you are a Canuck) "consistently".

When you are there, then you can start trying broadheads - yes, they may fly a little different than your field points, but they should ALL fly that little bit of different. If they don't, then you might have an indexing issue which would be the first thing to investigate. If they are all indexed then you have to consider that they just won't fly with your set-up and you move on to a different head.

If you try to change 2 or 3 or more things at one time you are going to chase your tail for a long time because it's just too difficult to determine "what component" is effecting the flight to what degree.

[cajuntec]

galamb,
I'm using what came with the bow - Excalibur Firebolt bolts. I've been an archer for a great number of years - both traditional (longbow and recurve) and modern compound. This is my first crossbow. I thought it would be easier. That was a mistake in thinking, as I've never had any of my other bows shoot so wildly, even with a not-perfectly-matched broadhead. The group (or actually, lack of group) that I shot today was crazy.

I never said I was "happy" with the results at 20 yards with field points. I simply stated that they grouped well (in the ballpark of where I was aiming them - consistently). That test was conducted to see if my sudden accuracy issues were related to the scope, or the broadheads. By (quickly) running through a bunch of field tipped bolts, I was able to determine the problem I'm having is with the broadheads, and not the scope. If I was shooting for accuracy, then I may see a problem with my 2" spread at 20 yards. I was not shooting for groups. I was shooting to see where my field tips would land, and if I would get the same wild results (about a 2 foot spread at 20 yards). As I did not on the first two bolts, I quickly ran through them. Verified. It's not a scope problem. It's a broadhead issue.

All the best,
Glenn

[otisbrazwell]

razorbacks don't spin the shaft spins.i shot vintage 150gr (5) blade razorbacks this afternoon out of a maga 405 .shaft was a diablo total weight was 390.4..arrow flew perfict at 40-50 yards off hand..years back we used 125 gr 3 blade razorbacks with the vertical bows with no problems..you do have to make sure there spinning fast and freely when you put the together

[cajuntec]

Glen it sounds like it is the heads. If I understand what you did with your head correctly, that is probably the problem. It sounds like there is not a perfect mating surface with the new ferrules causing the tip of the head be "off axis" with the center axis of the arrow.

Here is an easy test. Do a spin test in the palm of your hand. Straighten out your hand to make it like a hard board, tip in palm, spin the arrow (straight vertical). You might be able to see a wobble (if there is a problem), but you should be able to feel a wobble.

If that is not the problem, do as others have said in other threads, select "1" arrow & mark the fletchings. Shoot that arrow a few times with the same fletch down, then try it again with another fletch down. Try all three fletching down and see if there is any consistency.

But I do feel it is an allinement issue.

Tom

Thanks for the reply Tom.

The issue with spin testing these in the palm of my hand is that it is a razor sharp cut on contact head. Spinning them in the palm of my hand would quickly drill a hole into it. I did a spin test with them on my spin tester and didn't see any wobble.

I number all my arrows on the fletchings, but I haven't been doing the same fletch down as you recommended. I should have been doing that, as I always align the cock feather / vane on my trad or compound bows the same way. As all three fletchings were the same color on the crossbow bolts, and due to how it sat on the rail, I didn't give it a thought to put the same vane down each time. I'll give that a try and see what my results are.

Thanks again. I appreciate you taking the time to help.

All the best,
Glenn

[cajuntec]

razorbacks don't spin the shaft spins.i shot vintage 150gr (5) blade razorbacks this afternoon out of a maga 405 .shaft was a diablo total weight was 390.4..arrow flew perfict at 40-50 yards off hand..years back we used 125 gr 3 blade razorbacks with the vertical bows with no problems..you do have to make sure there spinning fast and freely when you put the together

I was shooting Razorcaps, not Razorbacks. This is the head by NAP:



All the best,
Glenn

[galamb]

Sorry, must have misinterpreted some of what you were saying there.

I still might be inclined to go with another bolt.

The factory firebolt that came with your Axiom (and my Vix II) are simply Easton C2's (which Easton doesn't even market anymore) with different wrap and the Excal insert in place of the nock.

These are very light compared to many of the bolts used by the guys/gals on this forum, but I suspect they were selected that way so that when used with the 150 grain heads, you got decent FOC.

I found that combination firebolt/150 bolt cutter worked "ok" - the guy I hunt with has your bow and he uses the firebolt/bolt cutter with good results.

What I found was once I abandoned those exact heads (boltcutters) and started playing around, particularly with 100 grain heads, that the arrows got real unpredictable real fast.

I tried adding screw in weights at the front. I changed the inserts with various grains between 80 and 110. I refletched them with longer, shorter, different profile vanes, even feathers and could not get them to shoot to my satisfaction.

It was at that point that I decided that if I wanted to shoot something other than the firebolt/boltcutter combo, I best try a different bolt and I did try many before settling in on what I shoot now.

PS - you are finding out what many here found out as well. "Contrary to popular belief", while it's easy to pull the trigger on a crossbow, it does not give you a great advantage over a vertical bow. They often require as much or more "tuning", are often a little more finicky in what they shoot and do not give you any distance advantage - they "really are a bow".

[Hunt it]

Out of all my older style Excal's the 150 gr bolt cutter was the most accurate. Out of my 380 I'm using 92 gr brass insert and 100 gr G5 Strikers.

[Tom]

razorbacks don't spin the shaft spins.i shot vintage 150gr (5) blade razorbacks this afternoon out of a maga 405 .shaft was a diablo total weight was 390.4..arrow flew perfict at 40-50 yards off hand..years back we used 125 gr 3 blade razorbacks with the vertical bows with no problems..you do have to make sure there spinning fast and freely when you put the together

I was shooting Razorcaps, not Razorbacks. This is the head by NAP:



All the best,
Glenn

Glen, in the past, I found that these style heads which had wide "voids" in the blade, while wind has less surface area to push it, it has more cutting surfaces (edges) which can effect the head more.

Remember a crossbow arrow is shorter then a vertical arrow. This means, the shorter arrow has less of an ability to stabilize the arrow flight.

I switched to the mechanical head (spitfire) just because I found that with the faster bows, that style head would have some eractic arrows in windy conditions, and it did not require much wind. How was the wind conditions.

BTW, I have done the "spin test" in the palm of my hand with heads which had points just like that one. Unless your hand is very soft, it will not "dig" in, but spin on top (your not applying pressure down on the arrow).

Tom

[cajuntec]

Graham,
No problem. Thank you for the continued help.

I've never really been a fan of Easton arrows, and I wish I had my reading glasses on to see the Easton logo in the lower right hand corner of the shaft label before I purchased a half-dozen more with the bow package. So now I have 10 of these. Gold Tip is what I've used in my compounds since 2002 (along with the GT Trad series in my longbow). I've always liked the accuracy and consistency of the GT shafts, and I like the fact that Gold Tip doesn't change most of their lineup every couple of years like Easton does. I have GT Hunter shafts from 2002 (the ones that only have the gold writing on them) and new GT XT Hunter shafts (green wrap with the XXX's on each side). They might not be "exactly" the same, but they are so close that changing from one to the other didn't require massive amounts of tweaking, or changes to my rest due to shaft diameter. Not so with Easton. I gave up on Easton for my compound because of the constant changes in their lineup. If I had a dozen arrows that flew perfectly in my bow, there was a very good chance I'd not be able to buy exact or even close replacements a short time later.

A good friend of mine also shoots GT Laser II's. I looked at GT, but they no longer list the Laser II. But in looking at shaft weight, and comparing to the weight chart that Excalibur has, it looks like most of the shafts GT offers are WAY lighter than the recommended weight, necessitating a much heavier head, or the brass inserts / weights to get the weight up (resulting in a higher FOC). As I was not aware of what FOC I could get away with, I was leaning towards getting GT shafts that were closer in weight to the recommended shaft (which is why I was originally sticking with the Firebolts - Excalibur showed them as 265 grains at 20" without the tip. As they recommend 350 grains at a minimum, adding anything over a 85 grain head would put me at 350 and above. The only thing in the GT lineup right now that is comparable in weight is the Nitro or Nitro Pro. They are 278 grains at 20".

Any of the other GT bolts would probably require a significant amount of weight.
Ballistics and Ballistic Pro's are 170 grains at 20". So I'd have to add 180 grains.
Swifts and Swift Pro's are 146 grains at 20". So I'd have to add 204 grains.
As the brass inserts are 110 grains, I wouldn't have a problem getting there, but since I'm unfamiliar with how much the high FOC affects crossbow bolts, I didn't know what was recommended. I know what the recommended FOC is for all of my other arrows, but haven't delved deep enough to find out the recommended FOC for these bolts. That's what I'm researching today.

You are right that I didn't expect as much tuning as I have done with my other bows. I have those others down to a science, done over an extensive amount of time. My arrows are all weighed, sorted, labeled, numbered, and tracked in a notebook I keep. I did not believe that getting a crossbow would give me any advantage over a vertical bow. My sole reason for getting it was so that my 12 year old can hunt during archery season, as he is simply not strong enough to pull back a vertical bow of sufficient weight to humanely kill an animal. He drills the target with this crossbow though, so I'm hoping to get it all figured out before the start of the season next month. He's shooting at what I consider to be very reasonable distances for most bows - within 25 yards. Most of his shot opportunities should be right at 20 yards - the distance between the ground blind and feeder.

Thanks again for the reply and advice. I'm eventually going to get some GT arrows; if not for anything other than I prefer GT over Easton. But for the time being, I just ordered some Slick Trick 150 grain broadheads to see what they will allow us to do with the current bolt setup. If it goes all to heck, my friend offered to send me some of his Laser II's with brass inserts to try. Midway had the Laser II's, but they are half-moon nocks, which I've been told to never use with my Excalibur crossbow.

All the best,
Glenn