Energy loss at various ranges

[ThunderXB]

As an interesting comment, I just had a well known archery retailer tell me that while they have Zombies they don't like them because they are TOO stiff.

Room for lots of thought and opinions.

On these knitting needles we shoot I'm all for stiff as you can get. (the arrows guys, the arrows )

[SEW]

Momentum is actually the tendency to keep going in spite of encountering resistance. Kinetic energy is normally referenced but really is second place. Momentum is greatly favored by increasing weight while kinetic energy is only slightly favored by increasing weight.
Momentum = weight x speed
Kinetic Energy = weight x speed x speed.
Still with the weight of arrows commonly used, we have at least double the energy required for deer and plenty of momentum. Likely most of us would actually benefit from less arrow weight and a flatter trajectory.
Incidentally, I'm 26' up in a cedar tree stand and it's COLD out here! Have seen nothing yet. M405/20" ST/Grizz Trick.

[SEW]

The archery dealer doesn't understand crossbow arrow dynamics.

[paulaboutform]

I'd love to hear Dorge from Firenock chime in.....but then I think all our heads would be spinning from information overload.

Paul

[Big John]

And then people wonder why I try to sell Executioners or Goldtip to lower poundage bow owners and Zombies only to higher poundage bows. Everyone wants Zombies no matter what they shoot. But, accuracy is not the same from both using them.
There is not a bow or arrow combination I havnt tried.
Always just to know what works best from each bow.

This is a very good topic guys! I commend you all participating.
A lot of people are learning something today. A lot!

Big John

[racking up points]

The archery dealer doesn't understand crossbow arrow dynamics.

I think I know who he TXB is referring to - I'm guessing he suggested a Gold Tip arrow? Simple fact is that he's gotta move product from more than 1 manufacturer to keep his foot in the door with both companies. When it comes to crossbow arrows I'm firmly in the stifffer is better category - even from my wife's Matrix 310 I wouldn't sacrifice the spine.

[SEW]

If we want zero flex with an arrow being shot out of a Xbow, a correct hypothesis, in my conviction, then any arrow that shoots well out of a higher stressed Xbow (ex: 405 vs 380) will work with a lower powered Xbow. An arrow that shoots well out of a M405 should shoot well out of a M330. Good examples could be a Zombie or a Spynal Tapp. Unless the arrow is too long or has an extreme FOC it should work well in all Matrix Xbows ( 310-405). However, an Executioner or even weaker spined arrow will likely shoot well in a 310-355; however, it will possibly not shoot well in the 380 and certainly not in the 405.
Xbows are not vertical bows. The arrow should come straight out with minimal to ideally, no flex. Using the stiffest arrow possible will always help. There is not tuning as there is tuning with a vertical bow.
As long as there is enough FOC for the max range desired and adequate steering, and enough spine to have minimal flexure, the arrow should shoot well. There is too weak of spine but NOT too strong of a spine.

[8ptbuk]

Very good reading ! I've always thought that the stiff shafts all but eliminated the need to spine index which to me was one of the most accuracy improving things I've ever tried .

[Arrowflinger]

And then people wonder why I try to sell Executioners or Goldtip to lower poundage bow owners and Zombies only to higher poundage bows. Everyone wants Zombies no matter what they shoot. But, accuracy is not the same from both using them.
There is not a bow or arrow combination I havnt tried.
Always just to know what works best from each bow.

This is a very good topic guys! I commend you all participating.
A lot of people are learning something today. A lot!

Big John

So what would your preference be for say a 350 LE be ; Executioners or Zombies. And where is the line drawn between the two arrows and the bows FPS. Inquiring minds would like to know. Thanks for your input.

[SEW]

Very good reading ! I've always thought that the stiff shafts all but eliminated the need to spine index which to me was one of the most accuracy improving things I've ever tried .

I thought the same thing. I thought that Spynal Tapps were so still that certainly the M380 wouldn't make them flex. Wrong! If spine indexing actually improves group size, then it is confirmed that even the Spynal Tapps flex some. And they do. I'll always use the stiffest spined arrow possible and will spine index the arrows also. Unless there is zero flex, the stiffer spined arrow , all else equal, will be more accurate. But the accuracy difference might be so minor an improvement that it's not noticeable nor practical to spend the difference. I'm not always practical.

[SEW]

I use Black Eagle because of people on this and another board. You bring up a good question. Hopefully, we'll get some answers.

[Opey]

All I can say is WOW and Thank you!

[SEW]

The 460g arrow. 2 reasons momentum and BC is better, assuming reasonable FOCs and fletching drag.

[Boo]

Why do people assume that a Black Eagle arrow is better than a Goldtip arrow is, is it just a stiffer spine? As far as arrows go for vertical compounds where arrows are longer and the specs matter that much more. Goldtip and Easton both make better arrows than Black Eagle does or any of the other smaller companies. You can't buy a better target shaft than a Goldtip and no other company makes a better small diameter hunting arrow than Easton does. With Easton and Goldtip you can buy 6 arrows now and buy 6 more a year from now and they will still weight the same or very very close. The smaller companies Black Eagle included you can't there is a batch to batch difference. As far as verts go if I'm standing at a stake at a 3D tournament there is going to be Goldtip arrows in my 3D chair and if I'm in a treestand there is going to be Easton small diameter arrows in my quiver. It's kinda weird coming from verts to crossbows to see all the love for Black Eagle because in the compound world it's just not there.

While some might automatically assume, some of us learned that Black Eagle Arrow shafts are better. Their products are much more consistent by way of a high standard of quality control. Yes, Easton makes a great compound bow shaft. Almost all of what you see in the big box are Eastons. Mostly Axis, Epics and Light Speeds for my compound and recurves. I have no problem with them so I have no reason to replace them with BEAs.

I am guessing that you're not aware how horrible Gold Tips got when they switched to Mexico for manufacturing back somewhere in 2011 or so. I culled many shafts for my compounds and crossbows back them and Easton was better than Gold Tip, but we, as crossbow shooters wanted better. Some of my Gold Tips came with splits and some of them actually warped. So back in 2012 I was in search for the holy grail of arrow shafts and found Black Eagle Arrow. The rest is history.
http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/phpBB2 ... agle+Arrow

[SEW]

Archery Addict,
I got into xbows 34 years ago while continuing to shoot my recurves and compounds. 10 years ago, I stopped using my compounds except for bear. 6 years ago I stopped using compounds.
I got a Strykeforce the year they came out. Executioners were recommended to me. I used them and my Gold Tips. About equal accuracy. When the Zombies came out, I tried them. No going back. When I got my M380 over 4 years ago, Big John made me 12 Zombie based arrows. WOW! They were all within 0.2gs! Accuracy was unbelievable. Almost 1" 100 yd groups with my Leupold 36x scope on an Optimizer. Later I did a test for Boo with Zombies and 3 different fletchings. I did achieve even slightly better results with the SK 300 but wasn't worth the marginal difference to ditch Blazers. The arrows from Boo, Big John, and Jerry at SSAS are all class acts. Mine are not as good but knocking on the door. Someday the door will open.
I relied on Boo, Jerry, Big John, Tom Butler for their judgement on arrow shaft brand.
While xbows shoot arrows, tuning principles from vbows do not translate straight across. We don't pick the correct spine in the way we do with vbows, we pick the stiffest spine available and still spine index and spine match if possible.
FOC. As long as we're not flexing the shaft much, more FOC than needed doesn't hurt accuracy but will cause the arrow to start dropping earlier. Since I feel we have plenty excess of KE and momentum, I want the minimum FOC to stay accurate at 100 yards. Any above that is wasted, IMO . I don't want to trade velocity for energy I don't need.
Your idea of keeping the poundage up and increasing arrow wt is dead on. You increased the BC of your arrows just as inferred in your question concerning the 350g arrow vs the 460g arrow.
Think we're all on the same page.