Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

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vpsaline
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Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by vpsaline »

Is a shoulder/scapula shot on a deer a concern for a modern crossbow hunter? Something tells me that any 175lbs modern crossbow will go through a shoulder with ease within reasonable ranges even with the low-end 350-380gr bolts. Do any of you have experience with this?

I think the penetration argument is overrated when talking modern crossbows but I could be wrong...
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by DuckHunt »

I've seen a dozen or more hit in the shoulder and the near shoulder doesn't appear to be much of a problem. In my experience it is the opposite shoulder that is more of a concern. On both archery bucks I shot last year, I did not get a pass through because the far shoulder stopped the arrow. In both cases the far shoulders were broken and the broadhead was just under the skin or barely sticking through.

One of the main concerns of hitting the shoulder, on either side, is that it can lead to poor blood trails. There are far better blood trails from a shot exiting low through the rib cage than through a shoulder.

My daughter shot her largest archery buck, an 8pt, quartering slightly toward her with an Exomax pushing a 100gr Hammerhead right at 350fps on a 350gr arrow. The arrow squarely hit the near shoulder right in the socket. The Hammerhead busted through it effectively cutting the ball off of the socket. The arrow came to a rest in the far shoulder. The blood trail was very sparse. We utilized a dog to help locate the buck in a thicket barely 100 yards from where it was hit.

A shoulder hit can be very effective, but I certainly wouldn't make that my target.
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by nchunter »

DuckHunt wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:25 am
I've seen a dozen or more hit in the shoulder and the near shoulder doesn't appear to be much of a problem. In my experience it is the opposite shoulder that is more of a concern. On both archery bucks I shot last year, I did not get a pass through because the far shoulder stopped the arrow. In both cases the far shoulders were broken and the broadhead was just under the skin or barely sticking through.

One of the main concerns of hitting the shoulder, on either side, is that it can lead to poor blood trails. There are far better blood trails from a shot exiting low through the rib cage than through a shoulder.

My daughter shot her largest archery buck, an 8pt, quartering slightly toward her with an Exomax pushing a 100gr Hammerhead right at 350fps on a 350gr arrow. The arrow squarely hit the near shoulder right in the socket. The Hammerhead busted through it effectively cutting the ball off of the socket. The arrow came to a rest in the far shoulder. The blood trail was very sparse. We utilized a dog to help locate the buck in a thicket barely 100 yards from where it was hit.

A shoulder hit can be very effective, but I certainly wouldn't make that my target.
That’s not been my experience. I shot a doe once in the shoulder scapula with a 100-grain Hammerhead, it made a loud “crack”, and the I got no penetration and the doe ran off.

Not sure what you’re referring to when you talk about “ball and socket”? There’s no ball and socket in the front, like there is in the rear. The shoulder scapula is actually free-floating, so to speak, surrounded by muscle.

To the OP, I wouldn’t recommend a shoulder shot unless you’re using a heavy arrow setup with a two-blade, single-bevel broadhead.
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by AJ01 »

Image

This poor critter took a step backwards as I sent a 100gr projectile his way. As you can see, it hit the shoulder, passed thru and exited the off side nicking the back of the offside shoulder leaving a gaping wound. Buck went maybe 30-35 yards before rolling "head over heels" deader than a stone!

And yes, this is the ENTRANCE wound! :wtf: This was done by a 2" cut Swhacker mechanical. The "Green Ones". Would a fixed balde been any better? Who knows. :eusa-think:
I saw the arrow exit the Buck and kick up about 10 yards beyound him. He turned an took off down the sendero he had emerges from like he was shot out of a cannon. Stevie Wonder could have followed the blood trail. 8)
Does it always work that way? Nope. It don't. I can tell ya it seems to me that if you watch enough hunting shows, you see a whole bunch of deer run off with much more arrow hanging out than in!
What causes this? Too light an arrow? Too small a broadhead? Fixed versus mechanical? Poor shot placement? Not enough FPS? I don't know, I ain't no "rocket scientist" or NASA Engineer, but I have killed a LOT of animals in my lifetime.
And I know I'm fixing to P. O. a lot of folks and I'll get "hate mail" for this, but...HEAVIER is Better!! :thumbup: :wink:

Do yourself a favor and go to youtube and watch some of the "Ranch Fairy" videos. Might give you food for thought....

Just saying!
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by DuckHunt »

nchunter wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:43 am
Not sure what you’re referring to when you talk about “ball and socket”? There’s no ball and socket in the front, like there is in the rear. The shoulder scapula is actually free-floating, so to speak, surrounded by muscle.
Agreed, the front is not like the rear. There's isn't a traditional ball and socket like on the pelvis. But the scapula does connect to the humerus in the front with joint that is ball-ish. :lol: My daughter's shot disconnected the scapula from the humerus.

This was the entrance from the 2" Hammerhead. I'm guessing the leg was forward, which would have been worse case. :eusa-doh: Notice the lack of blood everywhere like on AJ's photo. That's been my experience for the most part on front shoulder hits.
Image

The scapula-humerus connection:
Image

I consider her lucky in this case considering she was using a light arrow and a large cut mechanical. I would not recommend the shot and certainly not with this setup.
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by xcaliber »

I don't like shoulder shots with bow, or gun. I do however aim for the opposite shoulder when it's called for. Just my choice, not here to say what is right, or wrong. Your Farm, your chicken.
Doe went less than 20 yards, buck however leaked one little trail of blood before his stomach popped out and sealed the hole. He went about 80 yards before bleeding to death internally. Two shoulders straight on is a good shot for magnum size guns in my book.

[url=https://postimg.cc/0z66jbLC]Image

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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by vpsaline »

Holy smokes, crazy pics.

I'm not advocating aiming for the shoulder, I'm advocating for the fact that we're overstressing using heavy bolt setups. I'm thinking that any modern crossbow with 350-380gr bolt should shoot through a shoulder no problem in the event that a poor shot is made.
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by xcaliber »

In both pictures I was using mechanical heads. I think a small fixed head may have had different results, but the wounds created by the heads used were very impressive. I like to use 400 grains minimum for the sake of the bow honestly and never try to attain the minimum weight to gain speed. What works for me isn’t the only route to go!
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by AJ01 »

I truly wish I would have taken a shot of the exit hole on the Buck I listed above. :eusa-doh: It was the size if a baseball. When one of the younger boys in camp saw it, they thought I shot it with a 7mm Mag!
The broadhead itself was in fairly good shape. I replaced one blade and re-sharpened the other. Still using that head. :thumbup:

Back many, many years ago, I shot a dang good Buck at about 150 yards with a 7mm STW loaded with 160gr Nosler Partition. Hit the front shoulder going in and blew the other shoulder out going out. Buck still RAN over 100 yards before dropping. Both shoulders were jelly, bone fragments everywhere, and no blood. Buck was dead on his feet at impact.
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by wheelsquad »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4rrtuApLyM

Fast forward to 6:39 where he starts cutting it apart. No, there is not a ball and socket type joint in the front like there is in the rear. But yes there is still a ball on the end of the humerus where the scapula connects to it. It is still a pretty seriously thick part of bone that is not easy to cut through. But his arrow setup was able to.
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by nchunterkw »

vpsaline wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:03 am
Holy smokes, crazy pics.

I'm not advocating aiming for the shoulder, I'm advocating for the fact that we're overstressing using heavy bolt setups. I'm thinking that any modern crossbow with 350-380gr bolt should shoot through a shoulder no problem in the event that a poor shot is made.
I 100% disagree. IMO the 2 biggest killers of arrow penetration are
1) a weak a$$ broadhead that gets mangled if it even sniffs any bone, and
2) a "light" arrow (like 350gr)

And when you think about it...they kind of go together many times, as it's hard to build a light arrow (say 350gr as you suggest), when using an "indestructible" broadhead...say something made from 1 solid piece of tool steel. Most of those are 200gr plus themselves. Yes, you can find a 100gr solid piece BH, but it won't take the beating it's 200gr brother will.

As AJ suggested.....check out Ashby's stuff. It's interesting reading for sure.

https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/
https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/12-arrow-penetration-factors


My advice...aim for something around 450 - 500gr and use a solid fixed head like a 2 blade or 3 blade 200gr VPA
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by IronNoggin »

This big dry doe turned just as I let a 405 grain Big John Zombie Slayer fly.
Did not hit where intended.

Image

Tipped with a 125 grain Spitfire mechanical, the damage it did on impact was truly amazing:

Image

Image

Blew right through her.
Left a blood trail that was incredible, but tumbled a long way down that slope after she expired.
Made for a crappy drag uphill.

Looked to me like a hit from a 30-06.

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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by AJ01 »

nchunterkw wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:09 pm
vpsaline wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:03 am
Holy smokes, crazy pics.

I'm not advocating aiming for the shoulder, I'm advocating for the fact that we're overstressing using heavy bolt setups. I'm thinking that any modern crossbow with 350-380gr bolt should shoot through a shoulder no problem in the event that a poor shot is made.
I 100% disagree. IMO the 2 biggest killers of arrow penetration are
1) a weak a$$ broadhead that gets mangled if it even sniffs any bone, and
2) a "light" arrow (like 350gr)

And when you think about it...they kind of go together many times, as it's hard to build a light arrow (say 350gr as you suggest), when using an "indestructible" broadhead...say something made from 1 solid piece of tool steel. Most of those are 200gr plus themselves. Yes, you can find a 100gr solid piece BH, but it won't take the beating it's 200gr brother will.

As AJ suggested.....check out Ashby's stuff. It's interesting reading for sure.

https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/
https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/12-arrow-penetration-factors


My advice...aim for something around 450 - 500gr and use a solid fixed head like a 2 blade or 3 blade 200gr VPA
Also view some of "The Hunting Public" videos. Between Troy over at "The Ranch Fairy" and them, they have a good argument for heavy arrows. :thumbup:
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by BrotherRon »

I hunt with a Matrix 310 pushing less than 285 fps with a total weight of 426 grains with 125 grain naps leading the charge and have had a passthrough on every shot, including a 40 yard broadside shot on a doe eating in a clearing... she never flinched until the arrow had already passed through.
Some people prefer more speed, but I prefer consistent accuracy and passthroughs. Although the only shoulder I have ever hit was last fall when a big doe was quartering towards me and I shot her in the throat when she lifted her head and the arrow exited her left shoulder which was shattered and flopped like a sock full of jello. My set-up isn't fast, but it works just fine for me. :thumbup:
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Re: Is a shoulder/scapula shot a concern for a modern crossbow hunter?

Post by one shot scott »

I have used toxic broadheads in the past and they work well, but not on an accidental shoulder shot. Was using my 380 that day and the deer walked away. slowly :cry:
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