The 6" arrow you saw in the photo is 525 grains total weight shot from a 175 pound bow. Way more than enough energy to take any animal. And, it will not be the company that builds them the will push the reg change. It will be the consumer.
Consumers do have the biggest voice in the matter.
Thanks.
Would you like more accuracy from your Excalibur?
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designer 2
- Posts: 73
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jh45gun
it was an uphill battle to get the xbow here in tn, but it was over-come and now a reality..we can use the xbow and i love it as do many others here in this state. would you agree that if it was out on the market the consumer (US, the hunter) would or could get the movement started to be used in other states.
when i first started reading the post i thought it was a false post wanting funding (our money) and then would be gone. i've now seen the pictures but would still need to see a company go on with the idea.. people made fun of the automobile until it finally came out.
if this product does what is claimed then go further with it and let's see what takes place.
tom/tn
it was an uphill battle to get the xbow here in tn, but it was over-come and now a reality..we can use the xbow and i love it as do many others here in this state. would you agree that if it was out on the market the consumer (US, the hunter) would or could get the movement started to be used in other states.
when i first started reading the post i thought it was a false post wanting funding (our money) and then would be gone. i've now seen the pictures but would still need to see a company go on with the idea.. people made fun of the automobile until it finally came out.
if this product does what is claimed then go further with it and let's see what takes place.
tom/tn
what you do for and too others will come back 10 fold.
I did not read all the posts and this may have been addressed.
A normal Arrow/Bolt for hunting has the business end (Broadhead) up front and the shaft follows the large hole created by the BH. On this, the shaft has to go thropugh before the blades get there always having to punch it's own hole for the blades to follow creating friction along the way.
Will this small bolt have enough weight and K.E. to do this?
I have seen many less than perfect shots(on TV and Video) where the arrow is sticking out of the animal with the fletching still exposed,in this case it would be the Broadhead sticking out.
Just a thought
A normal Arrow/Bolt for hunting has the business end (Broadhead) up front and the shaft follows the large hole created by the BH. On this, the shaft has to go thropugh before the blades get there always having to punch it's own hole for the blades to follow creating friction along the way.
Will this small bolt have enough weight and K.E. to do this?
I have seen many less than perfect shots(on TV and Video) where the arrow is sticking out of the animal with the fletching still exposed,in this case it would be the Broadhead sticking out.
Just a thought
Scott
http://www.myspace.com/saxman1
Take a kid hunting
They don't remember their best day of watching TV
Excalibur Equinox
TruGlo Red/Green Dot
NGSS Absorber by NewGuy
Custom strings by BOO
Groundpounder Top Mount
ACF Member - 2011
http://www.myspace.com/saxman1
Take a kid hunting
They don't remember their best day of watching TV
Excalibur Equinox
TruGlo Red/Green Dot
NGSS Absorber by NewGuy
Custom strings by BOO
Groundpounder Top Mount
ACF Member - 2011
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designer 2
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:56 pm
Gentlemen:
First of all, with regard to the short arrow. When compared to a full length arrow/bolt of equal weight being shot from the same bow, they will have equal speed and energy. That's a rule in physics which cannot be changed. The difference with the short arrow is that it has so little surface area when compared to a full length bolt that it does not want to slow down as fast. In other words, the short arrow has more energy down range than a full length one simply because it retains it's speed longer. All tests I have done were at 60 yards which is too far for a normal and ethical shot. The full length bolt lost 30 FPS at 60 yards where my short arrow lost only 5 FPS. Example; Muzzle velocity of 525 grain short arrow and full length bolt was 275 FPS (88.18 foot pounds of energy). At 60 yards, the full length bolt was traveling at 245 FPS (69.99 foot pounds of energy) and the short arrow was traveling at 270 FPS (85 foot pounds of energy). That's quite a difference. More energy equals better penetration.
Another way to look at it is that if the tip of your arrow is sticking out of the animal by 6 inches, the short arrow has passed through. This means a non-plugged exit wound which results in a much better blood trail.
With regard to legality;
Yes, vertical bow shooters have a big problem with crossbows. Partly, it's hunting area greed. Any new advancements means more hunters in the woods which means they must share their little corner of the woods with someone else. (There have been quite a few articles written on the subject). With regard to DNR and DOC, etc., most areas which are allowing crossbows during archery season are the states which have a deer problem that the regular archers are not handling. Also, it is more revenue for them. Don't forget that the "almighty buck" speaks louder than anything.
First of all, with regard to the short arrow. When compared to a full length arrow/bolt of equal weight being shot from the same bow, they will have equal speed and energy. That's a rule in physics which cannot be changed. The difference with the short arrow is that it has so little surface area when compared to a full length bolt that it does not want to slow down as fast. In other words, the short arrow has more energy down range than a full length one simply because it retains it's speed longer. All tests I have done were at 60 yards which is too far for a normal and ethical shot. The full length bolt lost 30 FPS at 60 yards where my short arrow lost only 5 FPS. Example; Muzzle velocity of 525 grain short arrow and full length bolt was 275 FPS (88.18 foot pounds of energy). At 60 yards, the full length bolt was traveling at 245 FPS (69.99 foot pounds of energy) and the short arrow was traveling at 270 FPS (85 foot pounds of energy). That's quite a difference. More energy equals better penetration.
Another way to look at it is that if the tip of your arrow is sticking out of the animal by 6 inches, the short arrow has passed through. This means a non-plugged exit wound which results in a much better blood trail.
With regard to legality;
Yes, vertical bow shooters have a big problem with crossbows. Partly, it's hunting area greed. Any new advancements means more hunters in the woods which means they must share their little corner of the woods with someone else. (There have been quite a few articles written on the subject). With regard to DNR and DOC, etc., most areas which are allowing crossbows during archery season are the states which have a deer problem that the regular archers are not handling. Also, it is more revenue for them. Don't forget that the "almighty buck" speaks louder than anything.
My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts.
Designer your concept has some very interesting points and ideas. You are also correct that the only way that laws get changed is from pressure of voters. People do not change laws, it is only people that can vote. Now if I was someone that was interested in putting up money to get this on the market, I would have to think twice because it would, in my opinion, take 3 to 4 times the money invested to try to get the laws changed then to produce it.
Now, do I think that this bow has a place in todays hunting world. No I do not. I also do not think that the very high poundage bows have a place either. People have mentioned bows of the future in the 250-300 pound range. Those are not needed to hunt animals in North America. All these higher poundage bow will eventually do is give people the idea that they have the power to take shots that are not eithical (long distances & non vital shots).
Now your discription of what happens to your arrow at 60 yards is cool, but to shot at an animal at that distance is not eithical, espically if it is a deer. Deer react quickly to sounds and movement, too quickly and would probually be moved enough to have a bad hit. Believe me, my bow shoots arrows in the 270-280 fps range and I know what the tradjectory of the arrow is. I can shoot out to 60 yards very accuratly, but the arrow takes way too long to get there. About the need for the extra penertration, I already get pass throughs with my 20" arrows. How far do you want the arrow to travel after exiting the deer. This then brings up a possible dangerous situation of the arrow doing dammage arter exiting the deer.
Not trying to put down your ideas or concepts but they are not for me.
Now, do I think that this bow has a place in todays hunting world. No I do not. I also do not think that the very high poundage bows have a place either. People have mentioned bows of the future in the 250-300 pound range. Those are not needed to hunt animals in North America. All these higher poundage bow will eventually do is give people the idea that they have the power to take shots that are not eithical (long distances & non vital shots).
Now your discription of what happens to your arrow at 60 yards is cool, but to shot at an animal at that distance is not eithical, espically if it is a deer. Deer react quickly to sounds and movement, too quickly and would probually be moved enough to have a bad hit. Believe me, my bow shoots arrows in the 270-280 fps range and I know what the tradjectory of the arrow is. I can shoot out to 60 yards very accuratly, but the arrow takes way too long to get there. About the need for the extra penertration, I already get pass throughs with my 20" arrows. How far do you want the arrow to travel after exiting the deer. This then brings up a possible dangerous situation of the arrow doing dammage arter exiting the deer.
Not trying to put down your ideas or concepts but they are not for me.
Tom
[img]http://hometown.aol.com/wingbonecall/images/turkey.gif[/img]
[img]http://hometown.aol.com/wingbonecall/images/turkey.gif[/img]
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designer 2
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Tom:
As I mentioned in my last post that my TESTING was at 60 yards and is an unethical distance for hunting. The tests were conducted at that distance as a worst case senario. I agree that more pundage is not good and I am not using more poundage. As far as arrows doing more damage after they leave the animal, most people hunt from a tree. After pass-throughs, the arrow go into the ground, ie., no damage (except to the arrow itself).
As far as rulings, it will not costs me a cent. When people vote, I will not be charged. That's a freebee.
To say it's not for you - You have not tried it or seen it in person - or seen what a production bow will do. Bottom line is; as hunters in a given field, ie. guns, bows, spears, whatever, it is our responsibilty to be as humane as possible.
As I mentioned in my last post that my TESTING was at 60 yards and is an unethical distance for hunting. The tests were conducted at that distance as a worst case senario. I agree that more pundage is not good and I am not using more poundage. As far as arrows doing more damage after they leave the animal, most people hunt from a tree. After pass-throughs, the arrow go into the ground, ie., no damage (except to the arrow itself).
As far as rulings, it will not costs me a cent. When people vote, I will not be charged. That's a freebee.
To say it's not for you - You have not tried it or seen it in person - or seen what a production bow will do. Bottom line is; as hunters in a given field, ie. guns, bows, spears, whatever, it is our responsibilty to be as humane as possible.
My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts.
i read all of the posts just to make sure I got the jist of everything and I wish you luck.... but this is definitely not for me....
- there is already enough antagonism and misinformation out there about xbows... this just adds more fuel to the anti-xbow fire...
- I already get 1" groups at 30 yards so who really cares if I reduce it to 3/4"... and as far as a humane kill.... 1" vs 3/4 ".... come on....
- I already get 300 fps + so I don't need more speed.... in fact the added speed will just be used by the vertical bow community to show more differences and why xbows should be used in gun season.....
- I hunt with xbows..... I still have my muzzle loaders and my rifles... but I don't use them... just personal preference..... so for me this is kinda' like going backwards... I have lots of friends who still hunt with guns and we all have a blast together.... its just for me I like using bows more........
- its already been pointed out that you need to get 6" of penetration before the cutting starts.... no thanks... not for me...
- anti-xbow groups already use the shorter, faster bolt argument in their "cross-gun" diatribe... this just makes it worse....
- there is still are problems with the regs.... length limits on shafts and the wording "tipped" with a cutting point....
- the short projectile being suggested could be categorized as a "slurbow", "barreled crossbow" or "bullet crossbow".... which probably won't help the xbow cause....
- from the physics side I things I will need to think about it more but I remember some ballistics studies about short projectiles in soft tissue that showed a greater chance of deviation after hitting soft tissue.....
again, best of luck but its not for me.......
- there is already enough antagonism and misinformation out there about xbows... this just adds more fuel to the anti-xbow fire...
- I already get 1" groups at 30 yards so who really cares if I reduce it to 3/4"... and as far as a humane kill.... 1" vs 3/4 ".... come on....
- I already get 300 fps + so I don't need more speed.... in fact the added speed will just be used by the vertical bow community to show more differences and why xbows should be used in gun season.....
- I hunt with xbows..... I still have my muzzle loaders and my rifles... but I don't use them... just personal preference..... so for me this is kinda' like going backwards... I have lots of friends who still hunt with guns and we all have a blast together.... its just for me I like using bows more........
- its already been pointed out that you need to get 6" of penetration before the cutting starts.... no thanks... not for me...
- anti-xbow groups already use the shorter, faster bolt argument in their "cross-gun" diatribe... this just makes it worse....
- there is still are problems with the regs.... length limits on shafts and the wording "tipped" with a cutting point....
- the short projectile being suggested could be categorized as a "slurbow", "barreled crossbow" or "bullet crossbow".... which probably won't help the xbow cause....
- from the physics side I things I will need to think about it more but I remember some ballistics studies about short projectiles in soft tissue that showed a greater chance of deviation after hitting soft tissue.....
again, best of luck but its not for me.......
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designer 2
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:56 pm
Stalker:
Thanks for your honesty and your "best of luck".
Bowtech is comming out with a 405 FPS crossbow. If fact, all bow companies are striving for better, faster and higher technolgy products. That's the American way of life. The sad fact is that most things in this country revolve aroung the "almighty buck" and no one will change that.
Sure, I'd like to get rich. Most people do. But, I am ALL FOR better accuracy and more humane kills.
Thanks for your honesty and your "best of luck".
Bowtech is comming out with a 405 FPS crossbow. If fact, all bow companies are striving for better, faster and higher technolgy products. That's the American way of life. The sad fact is that most things in this country revolve aroung the "almighty buck" and no one will change that.
Sure, I'd like to get rich. Most people do. But, I am ALL FOR better accuracy and more humane kills.
My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts.
would i like more accuracy...absolutely not......designer 2 wrote:Stalker:
Thanks for your honesty and your "best of luck".
Bowtech is comming out with a 405 FPS crossbow. If fact, all bow companies are striving for better, faster and higher technolgy products. That's the American way of life. The sad fact is that most things in this country revolve aroung the "almighty buck" and no one will change that.
Sure, I'd like to get rich. Most people do. But, I am ALL FOR better accuracy and more humane kills.
- in a rush on the weekend, i sighted in my exomag for our annual hunting trip...after a 20 yard sighting check i proceeded to fire 3 bolts at 50 yards...these were 3 of my newly made gt lazer 11's capped flor. orange, 19" long, 4.5" feather, brass insert, and topped with an 85 grain slck...varizone is set at approx. 325 fps...to make a long story short i fired the first bolt from a resting position on my knee and (i know better) held the 2nd on the first bolt and the third on what i though was the second bolt a couple of inches to the right of the first bolt...end result was one screwed up slick, one nicked insert and a feather and a bit with a shave...i was pis--d, but like i said i know better
...do i want more accuracy...absolutely not 
....just a bit more time to do this all properly... wayne.jones@pei.sympatico.ca
The vertical bow shooters won't ever be satisfied. Trying to placate them is hopeless and a waste of time. We just need to be prepared if they get too pushy. If they try to roll back the clock so that xbows can't be used for hunting, we should insist that only long bows shooting cedar arrows be permitted for hunting. They had best be cautious about playing with the clock.
I have no problem with the short bolt.
In fact, it interests me. It should have considerably less wind deflection than standard bolts or arrows. It has more penetration. For deer hunters that may be irrelevant, but I would like that aspect, especially if it could be coupled with a much larger cut. A larger cut would have zero disadvantages if it could be accomplished without wind plane problems. Maybe that would require some kind of mechanical blade. Anyway, it would be a no-lose situation if it could be done. A larger cut coupled with a better penetration could only mean better blood trails and cleaner kills.
I can't see the big issue here. The length of the shaft is irrelevant. The shaft is just a delivery system for the broadhead. Period.
I have no problem with the short bolt.
In fact, it interests me. It should have considerably less wind deflection than standard bolts or arrows. It has more penetration. For deer hunters that may be irrelevant, but I would like that aspect, especially if it could be coupled with a much larger cut. A larger cut would have zero disadvantages if it could be accomplished without wind plane problems. Maybe that would require some kind of mechanical blade. Anyway, it would be a no-lose situation if it could be done. A larger cut coupled with a better penetration could only mean better blood trails and cleaner kills.
I can't see the big issue here. The length of the shaft is irrelevant. The shaft is just a delivery system for the broadhead. Period.
"Gun Control Laws"--trying to nag criminals into submission.
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designer 2
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- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:56 pm
You wanted a third party. Try giving Gary Simonds a call. He was or is the head of R&D for Mathews and was the Head of R&D for Bear Archery. Right now, Henry Gallops is the head of R&D for Bear. They both wittnessed a 3/4" group at 60 yards with that arrow in the photo. That arrow is a hunting arrow. I know a few of you guys are great shots and can get 1" groups at forty yards and I would agree that you would not need more accuracy than that. But, and be HONEST, can you get that with a broadhead on the front of the arrow and get the same consistant accuracy? I would bet no. If you can, you have everything perfect. A great group at certain distances with a target tip does not really count when the bow is used for hunting. Be honest again. How many people do you think exersise the care, time and patience you take with your bow? I would bet anything, that most do not. When you have a product that eliminates a lot of trial and error to make the people proficient faster, that's the one that will sell. It's been like that since day one. People will not change.
I know people will say, If you do not take the time to learn, practice, etc., you do not belong in the woods. Well, you would be right. BUT, that will never be. People will ALWAYS gravitate towards the "Easy Button".
Not to be sacastic, but isn't that one of the main reasons most people use a crossbow over a vertical bow?
jh45gun:
"Do we really need it?"
I must ask you.
Did we really need the compound bow over the recurve?
Did we really need a rifled barrel over the smooth bore?
Did we really need a percussion cap over the flint lock?
I know, enough already with the "Did we's"
I hope you get my point that progress always progresses.
I like my electric lights. Do not wish to light my house with candles.
Thanks
I know people will say, If you do not take the time to learn, practice, etc., you do not belong in the woods. Well, you would be right. BUT, that will never be. People will ALWAYS gravitate towards the "Easy Button".
Not to be sacastic, but isn't that one of the main reasons most people use a crossbow over a vertical bow?
jh45gun:
"Do we really need it?"
I must ask you.
Did we really need the compound bow over the recurve?
Did we really need a rifled barrel over the smooth bore?
Did we really need a percussion cap over the flint lock?
I know, enough already with the "Did we's"
I hope you get my point that progress always progresses.
I like my electric lights. Do not wish to light my house with candles.
Thanks
My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts.
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designer 2
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- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:56 pm
jh45gun:
Wow, I really ruffled your feathers. I definately did not mean to and I am sorry if you took my post the wrong way.
As far as regs go;
Too many years ago, I had brought a version of this same concept built into a vertical bow. It shot the 6" arrow as well as the full length arrow. It had an identical tube arrangement on it just like the picture of the crossbow I modified in this thread. By the way, the crossbow that is in this thread shoots standard length arrows as well. The only difference is that on the vertical bow, the tube reciprocates on rollers as you draw the bow and it did not lock back. When I brought it to the DNR headquartes in Madison and explained the concept to them, they liked it because it was not different in that it still shot an arrow at the same speed and trajectory as any other bow. The BIGGEST thing they liked about it was the simple fact that any arrow you shoot stays enclosed in the tubular reat making it MUCH safer than any other type of rest. Arrows cannot blow up in your face or go through your arm. I had received a letter from a Larry Johnston of the DNR which gave me the OK in writing.
After that, I went into production with the vertical bow. I had many customers all over, including Wisconsin buy it and they loved it. In Iowa, a few individuals of the Iowa bowhunters Assoc. raised a stink and my bow was made illegal. My customers were really ticked so they brought the bow to the commisioners and did a demo and expained the reality of it all. They understand then what they had originally made a ruling against and imediatly changed the regs back to allow it.
When a product is easier to understand, set-up and shoot, a larger percentage of people like that.
Also, if you look back at my earlier post, I said that 60 yards is not ethical too.
Sorry again 45gun.
Jeff
Wow, I really ruffled your feathers. I definately did not mean to and I am sorry if you took my post the wrong way.
As far as regs go;
Too many years ago, I had brought a version of this same concept built into a vertical bow. It shot the 6" arrow as well as the full length arrow. It had an identical tube arrangement on it just like the picture of the crossbow I modified in this thread. By the way, the crossbow that is in this thread shoots standard length arrows as well. The only difference is that on the vertical bow, the tube reciprocates on rollers as you draw the bow and it did not lock back. When I brought it to the DNR headquartes in Madison and explained the concept to them, they liked it because it was not different in that it still shot an arrow at the same speed and trajectory as any other bow. The BIGGEST thing they liked about it was the simple fact that any arrow you shoot stays enclosed in the tubular reat making it MUCH safer than any other type of rest. Arrows cannot blow up in your face or go through your arm. I had received a letter from a Larry Johnston of the DNR which gave me the OK in writing.
After that, I went into production with the vertical bow. I had many customers all over, including Wisconsin buy it and they loved it. In Iowa, a few individuals of the Iowa bowhunters Assoc. raised a stink and my bow was made illegal. My customers were really ticked so they brought the bow to the commisioners and did a demo and expained the reality of it all. They understand then what they had originally made a ruling against and imediatly changed the regs back to allow it.
When a product is easier to understand, set-up and shoot, a larger percentage of people like that.
Also, if you look back at my earlier post, I said that 60 yards is not ethical too.
Sorry again 45gun.
Jeff
My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts.
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mdcrossbow
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