Question: 20 yard vs 50 yard Opportunities

[knobby]

deer can and do 'jump the string'

and they can do it with even the fastest bows at short yardages....under 20 yards and youre probably safe....over 20 and you better aim low on an alert deer

if you havent seen proof....then you havent watched many hunting videos. There are SEVERAL that have recorded footage showing in slow motion how much a deers body can drop at the sound of a bow going off.

Until we have arrows sailing thru the air at over 1100 fps this is always going to be the case.

Unless you are a mind reader with telepathic powers...you have no idea if the deer is going to jump.

It is often thought that deer actually jump the string MORE at closer ranges due to the fact that the sudden sound is close to them. Much the same way you jump if someone sneaks up behind you and makes a loud noise. You dont jump if the sound is 35 yards away though.

IMO any deer more than 20 yards away CAN jump the string.
Will they? who knows

To a degree what sumner says applies. Your experience has to tell you if its the right time for a shot. Your intuition/gut feeling whatever you like to call it will tell you when the time is right.

At 50 yards....its hard to even see small arrow deflecting twigs

At 50 yards....the deer doesnt even really have to 'jump the string' to cause a less desireable hit. The deer might simply take a step or turn its body to nibble on something as the arrow is released

[sumner4991]

knobby . . .I sure would like to see the facts to back up your "string jumping" statements. Especially the video clips, you have the links? All I've seen so far is marginal based on a deer jumping a arrow that looks like a missed shot. Take a look at all the crossbow video . . .the prey doesn't flinch until the bolt hits it. I have not seen any video that shows a deer or anything else "string jump" a bolt. If you have some links or footage, that would be great, please post them.

I have shot at a lot of deer and base my statements on those reactions. I feel like I can predict a deer's reactions/movements just like I know what my kids are going to do before they do it. I like to wait until the last second before shooting, waiting for the deer to get as close as possible . . .not just waiting until they are within range. This hunting style in the beginning cost me several shots because I thought the deer were going to come closer and instead they made an unexpected turn. That still happens, just not very often. I have watched enough deer to know what to expect by reading their body language. They are predictable to a point, just like all creatures of habit. Knowing what a deer will do is my major weapon while stalking and I've developed this talent over 30+ years of stalking. It's not easy and takes a lot of time and patience. Deer are predictable and it's their greatest weakness. Every good hunter has cashed in on this weakness. We predict where they will eat, sleep, hide . . . .that's hunting. A deer will normally "freeze" when they see, hear or smell something that alerts them . . .the action which immediately follows is largely dependent on the distance the deer is from the item which causes the alert. In most cases, that frozen moment is when I take my shot.

Try slipping through the woods and sneaking within 10 yards of a deer. It's fun, hunting or not, it's a thrill. I've spent several summers playing that game. I've never used any special soaps, scent blocks, or lures. And a lot of times, I wasn't even wearing camo. Just sneaking from one ridge to another, one tree to the next . . .getting as close as possible. Man, I wish I could spend time in the woods like that again . . .just not as much time with kids and a city job. Maybe when I retire, if I can still walk/stalk.

Turkey are much harder to stalk than deer. Better eyes and in most cases, more eyes. Only been good enough a hand full of times to be successful at that game and I've never gotten within 10 yards.

Experience is the key. You must get the experience. Only one way to do that. Get out there and have some fun.

[PRB]

A deer cant drop below the arrows flight path in 20 yards reacting from the sound of the crossbow alone. Shooting at 250 fps and a deers reaction time of .10 they can only drop close to 1.5 inches...again based on a reaction from sound only. Great post sumner4991.

[knobby]

gosh sumner I have watched ALOT of hunting videos...some I own..many have been borrowed

I dont recall any specific footage right now....but there are several modern hunting videos that show slow motion footage of a deer jumping the string.

If I can remember next time I watch one again I will post the name of the video

I dont know where all the other numbers in this thread are coming from...but certainly you would agree that all the numbers of a deers jumping ability are simply guesstimations. There is no way to know that for sure.

I will throw some other numbers out there. There was a video out a few years ago which I cannot remember which one it is. I think it was a Primos video. In the video they claim that under 18 yards with a fast bow and the deer has very little chance of jumping the string. Over 18 yards...even with a 280 fps bow...and a deer can jump. And they showed a slow motion video of a deer doing it. The deer dropped the complete height of its body before the arrow got there.

Any way you slice it. If a deer is alert and/or aware of you....and that deer is more than 20 yards away...you better aim low in the kill zone or you are just asking for trouble.

Counting on your bow to out-speed a deer is a no-no in my book.

[Highlander]

Deer definitely jump the string. I've seen it several times -- what should have been a low hit turn to a high one, further back, or a miss.

There's a great old video by the Wensel brothers called "Down for the Count". In it they photograph at least ten misses caused by string jumping deer. They overlay a line on the deers back and replay the shot in slow motion. In all cases, the deer was on the alert and managed to drop a full body width in the time it took an arrow to travel twenty or so yards.

True, they were using slower recurves and compounds than we have today but the point is that deer jump the string. They illustrated that very well and advised shooting lower on alert deer.

Saying deer do not jump the string is simply wrong. I don't know a bowhunter who hasn't experienced it. The closer the better.

[PRB]

I am not an experienced bow hunter by any means. Yes deer can lower theyre body into an evasive position fast but they cant drop any faster than gravity will allow them to (34.2 fps I believe). My numbers are based on a deers reaction (any where from .10 to .15 of second up to no reaction at all) again based on theyre reaction from sound ONLY. There are other factors unbeknown to me that allows a deer to drop below the arrows path...like a sixth sense, flash of the bow limbs(much faster than sound) and who knows what else. A couple of years ago I beat this topic down into the ground so deep I had my head spinning in circles. The biggest concern of mine was the sound of the crossbow. Please dont misunderstand my previous post. But it is true that a deer cant move fast enough to get out of the way of an arrow when based on its reaction from the sound of the bow ONLY. There are other factors that come into play for this to be accomplished...again not theyre reaction from the sound of the bow at 20 yards.
After going around and around with this I kept coming back to those (mostly) older and certainly more experienced bow hunters who would always say to me "it all about how you learn to read the deers disposition" (body language)
P.S. - I have a Vixen and this is the only excuse I can come up with. Thats my story and Im sticking to it

[PRB]

Forgive me if this has already been posted but I read once that the best advice for bow hunting deer is that "Deer Are Predictable Unpredictable"

[Tar Heel]

I have been bowhunting over 40 years and i have had a lot of deer jump the string, when using a compound I finally worked out a system
that worked for me I did not try to quieten my bow I wanted them to drop (most shots were
under 20 yds.) I aimed low knowing the deer would drop. But I found that the further away I was the less the deer dropped and at 30 or more they did not drop.
My first year with the crossbow was 2003 with a Barnett Revolution which in spite of its bad reputation is a very fast and hard shooting bow.
I ranged a doe at 51 yds grazing and got a pass thru she did not move.
Then in 2005 I ranged a bear at 52 yds with my exomag got another pass thru and he did not move.
Thats 2 for 2 at 50 yds. Last year i lost one I shot at 25 yds. ( it happens ).
Would I shoot again at 50 yds. YES.

Tar Heel

[sumner4991]

Guys . . .I'm just not willing to give a deer that much credit. Sure, it happens, it happens a ton . . .a shot is taken and the target is missed. It happened to me this year. The shot was 150 yards and I busted the backbone. I missed my target. Now, if I had a great excuse like "the deer jumped the trigger" then I could just pass on taking the effort to recheck my scope and practicing my shooting technique. I wouldn't have to admit, I stunk up that shot. In this case the scope was on, I was off. The two deer I killed with the xbow were 20-30 yard shots. Both just happened to hit the target, but not exactly. The deer could have jumped the string . . .I could have missed . . .there are a ton of reasons the bolt didn't hit the target exactly where I aimed. Now . . .let's just say you were wanting some good footage of "string jumping" for a DVD. It would be real easy to set up the camera angle/distance to make a shot look like "string jumping". When in reality, the shot was a well placed miss. Now, I definitely agree on aiming low and forward. That's where the heart is located and thus where I want to hit. Too many times a hunter will look at a deer and aim in the middle . . .just not thinking at the time due to "buck fever". Well, that shot is high and back. Human error is far more common than string jumping. There are just way more things which can cause you to miss a shot than string jumping. Fortunately, those other things can be limited or even eliminated with preparation and practice. There's nothing you can do for string jumping . . .if it exists . . .you can make the shot shorter . . .but when a deer gets to within 20 yards the chances of the deer being alerted goes way up and when a deer is alert to something that close, they take off in a hurry. There are trade offs. Every hunter has to decide for themselves where their comfort zone is located. There is no set limit in the hunter's handbook. It must be set individually. My limits are 55 yards or less with my Exomax, 40 yards or less with my compound(was my limit before I had to stop using the compound) and 300 yards or less with my .270. What's good for me is not good for every hunter out there. Even my limits are adjusted due to hunting conditions. There have been a lot of times I wouldn't attempt a 30 yard shot due to weather conditions or unclear shooting lanes. If there was some sort of mathmatical equation to determine proper shooting distance, then the string jumping variable would be very small compared to the human/mechanical error variable.

With that said . . .every hunter needs to develop his/her skills and set their yardage limits based on their skill level and hunting conditions. Prepare and practice. Know your prey and your weapon. Then set your own limits based on what you know about you, your prey, the hunting conditions and your weapon.

[Tom]

Sumner you REALLY DO NOT GET IT DO YOU!!!!!!!!

If a deer jumps the string or does not jump the string is not the question. The statements are that they can jump the string at the greater distances. With them having the ability of moving the greater distance to create the bad hit on long shots is the reason MOST HUNTERS will say it is uneithical to take those shots. Yes the deer will still jump and react on closer shots, but the arrow will be there before the deer moves to far to create a bad hit.

You quote of:

Now . . .let's just say you were wanting some good footage of "string jumping" for a DVD. It would be real easy to set up the camera angle/distance to make a shot look like "string jumping". When in reality, the shot was a well placed miss.

is ridiculous.

In a previous thread I told you of footage on a CD that I had about watching the Buck actully deflect the arrow with his antlers. He move after the shot and diffected the antlers into the flight path of the arrow to make contact with the arrow. This is actully a natural defence of a buck or turing the antlers into danger. The video then went back to the orginal, preshot picture and went super slow motion. In this they put a RED DOT on the vitals of the deer. They left it right there after the shot and you got to watch the arrow, red dot, and the deer's reaction at the same time. When the deer makes contact with the arrow, the arrow was right on target with the red dot. I guess that if the red dot was exactly on the vitals before shot, and the arrow was on the red dot when it made contact with the antlers, THAT IT WAS NOT A MISSED SHOT, BUT A GOOD ONE

Also before you make a redictulous comment like above about it being the angle of the camera, THIS CAMERA SHOT WAS FROM RIGHT BESIDE HIM< INSIDE THE SAME GROUND BLIND (a popup).

Your other comment:

knobby . . .I sure would like to see the facts to back up your "string jumping" statements.

. WELL !!!!!!! where are your FACTS backing your comments. YOu have been given facts backing the string jumping (which you totally ignor) but you have NOT ONCE SUPPORTED YOUR CLAIMS in your statements. Have you proformed that test which I suggested to you in a previous post about going down range at the greater distance to see the time difference. I doubt it because you would not want to be proven wrong.

[sumner4991]

Tom . . .man, you get all uptight over nothing.

It's simple, I'm saying based on my hunting experience of 30+ years that I have not had a big issue with string jumping. It is actually such a non-issue that I do not even consider it when deciding whether or not to shoot at any given distance. Instead I focus on things I can control. My weapon and my marksmanship.

Now, if someone out there has freak footage of a buck using it's horns to block a shot, then it's just that, a freak occurance. Not a everyday thing, nor a weekly thing, nor is it a yearly thing. If string jumping was a big issue, then there would be lots of footage available. By the way, how was that red dot placed where it was? Did the shooter have a camera scope? And yes, I know there are marksman that can hit the horns of a buck, everytime.

People faking things for personal gain is not ridiculous as you stated. That happens on a daily basis.

My proof is everywhere. Look at all the dead deer. Watch the video clips on the internet. Watch ESPN. None of those animals flinch before the bolt hits them. I'm talking about flinching and a lot of those shots are well over 20 yards. There's a ton more footage of clean kills than there are of string jumpers.

I am not speaking on behalf of "most hunters" and I didn't realize that you had been appointed speaker of the hunting masses. All I am saying is this . . .if a hunter prepares and practices, then he can make a 50 yard shot that is very ethical. String jump or not.

[sumner4991]

Just look at the retail side of this thing called string jumping. It's hard telling how many dollars per year are spent on string jumping. I'm talking about all the things that make a bow silent. Got to be several million per year. Anyway, the guys that sell these accessories certainly have a vested interest in keeping string jumping alive and well. Think about it . . .who sponsers the DVD's? The ESPN shows? It's all about the money. Certainly worth making a few videos and throwing them out there, right?

Anyway, just consider this retail side before jumping on the bandwagon. No pun intended.

I was a poor farming boy. I taught myself to hunt. Didn't watch the video's or the TV shows . . .I was outside learning the hard way. The best way. Sure, I got some tips from my buddies at school. Some worked, some didn't. However, I must say, I was never influenced by retail. Only bought what I absolutely had to have to kill a deer . . .no perks like scent block or sliencers. My silencers were rubber bands. Seemed to work ok for me. My camo was blue jeans. Took a few years to become good at deer hunting, but I did get good.

Anyway . . .preparing and practicing work for me. String jumping has never been a problem that I've had to solve.

[Tom]

Sumner that RED DOT was applied to the VIDEO by the means of EDITTING. THe camera was in a fixed position (did not move after shot, the tree trunks never moved) so I assume that it was on a tripod.

I am not "been appointed speaker of the hunting masses" like you say. But I am someone that is trying to look out for misrepresentation of facts to others. When I see blantant misleady of information, I will speak out.

You have constant preached that taking shots out to 60 - 65 yards is ok because there is not string jumping from a deer. That is WRONG and incorrect. You may have been lucky and not ever had it happen to you, but it does happen and has happened to many EXPERIANCED QUALITY HUNTERS. You have always disreguarded what everyone else has said, shot down their statements, requested data to prove the string jumping statements. When you get this data, you either ignore it or look for ways around to dispute it. But you also have never offered up data to back up your statements, but still tear apart what others say because they did not have imediate data.

Your statements are grouping everything in one group, but we all know that is not right or correct. Yes companies make alot of money of products that they promot. Many things are not needed or even required, I am not going to get into that as it is just too bug of a topic that would never end. But just because someone, or many, sell things to make money on string jumping, scent control ect. does not mean that there is or is not an issue with it. I actually think that devices that make you bow silient (if it cost you speed) is a cost you should notpay. I have said that on here many times.

Again ........... have you tried that test of standing out at 60 - 65 yards, near the target (behind a safe wall for protection) to see the time difference. Another test you can do, same setup as above, put a string on a target paper and when you hear the bow shoot, jerk the string (keep string tight to the paper) to see if the arrow hits the bullseye. WE all know that a deer's reaction time would be alot greater then a humans (I would classify a human's allert reaction time to still be slower then a relaxed deer, but would call it a wash in this test since all animals and humans reaction are different).

Again, All I am trying to do is to make sure that new shooters / hunters are not misslead in believing that deer can't string dump because they can and do as have been proved. Not all deer will, but some will.

[Cedrus]

Forget it Tom. You're wasting your time. He's from the "Bowsite."

Deer definitely jump the string. I've seen it several times -- what should have been a low hit turn to a high one, further back, or a miss.


Saying deer do not jump the string is simply wrong. I don't know a bowhunter who hasn't experienced it. The closer the better.

I've certainly seen it too Highlander.

[knobby]

HAHAHAHA sumner...I thought you were serious there for a minute. Now I know you arent all there when you make comments like...

.let's just say you were wanting some good footage of "string jumping" for a DVD. It would be real easy to set up the camera angle/distance to make a shot look like "string jumping". When in reality, the shot was a well placed miss.

LOL I dont know why youre on such a crusade to disprove string jumping but youre getting very desperate to say things like that.



PRB...

Yes deer can lower theyre body into an evasive position fast but they cant drop any faster than gravity will allow them to

that isnt true....muscles work against one another and the deers own body weight and I believe they capable of 'ducking' faster than gravity. Arent you able to? Its the same thing. Heck even get down on your hands and knees and try it. You dont have to be upright for your abdominal muscles to lower your front half quicker than gravity.