Am/Should I be mad???

Crossbow Hunting

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groundpounder
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Am/Should I be mad???

Post by groundpounder » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:36 pm

You better believe I am and I believe rightfully so! I also thank Boo for bringing this to the surface for it bothering his morals so and to want to stand up for a friend.
For those that do not know the history, a few years ago I sat down and came up with the groundpounder mount for me. Being new to the forum and all I posted it just to see what people thought of it. There was such a response of others wanting it I needed to go into production. Again the first one was just for me. With alot of leg work and some trial and error I came up with what we now have. I've done my best to keep cost as minimal as I can so as to not have to pass it on to you. I also looked into the legal thing to copyright. You don't even want to know how expensive that can be! I just wanted to have fun making these and see people posting their harvest pictures with the use of my mount. That is far more payment than what I actually make on a mount.
I then sold one to Munch. He took my mount and took it to a machine shop to have it jobbed out. He originally stated he was making them for him but it soon turned to be looking to make a buck. Or maybe that was the idea ALL along. I have spoke up on this from time to time but have never let myself get "heated" with my words on the forum. Not to say that I don't get heated over this subject! Do I think Munch is a thief, YES I DO! For those that say his mount is different, its only different in appearance. It still mounts the same and places it in the same place. I don't care if he does paint it pink :? its still the same mount. I have received alot of support from members here and that has helped to keep me at just biting my tongue so many times. But when shots are going to be taken at those who support me I need to put my words into play. I don't see how anyone can put themselves in my shoes and see where I should be fine with all of this.
We are quick to slam Middleton Crossbows for what they have tried to do against Excalibur! But if its the little guy we let it ride. :evil:
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chessy
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by chessy » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:45 pm

just getting back into this fourm again after suffering a broken back 2 years ago.. but you do have a point on one hand but on the other you dont .. if you copy right it then you have the same case as excalibur and middleton till then if your willing to show people (and even the wrong people ) then it unfortunatly is your loss. that said i wish you luck in selling your idea mabey get ahold of bill and see if he will patten your idea and mabey you can make a few bucks in the selling of the patton ... i have seen this sort of stuff all my short life of 41 years.. people will take others ideas and run with it and with fighting with the one who took your idea eventually you both might look bad .. i hope this does not sound the wrong way .. i have seen a guy with a turkey logo on a site only to have it copied and applied to his own he did not desing it he stole it and copyrighted it for himself... it happens every where

groundpounder
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by groundpounder » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:51 pm

The problem with a patent is cost and what it really does for you. When I looked into it it would cost around $5000 to get you started with one. And even if you have one someone can still copy you. Its up to you to take them to court over it costing you even more. If you are dealing with a company with deep pockets they could make it a rough ride.
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by chessy » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:54 pm

i guess all i can say then is when you make something as good as what you have the best compliment is duplication.

DirtyGun
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by DirtyGun » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:20 pm

It's a duplicated and slightly modified copy of something that has no patent or copyright attached to it. It's unfortunate that you feel you have been robbed in some manner, however, if steps weren't taken to protect yourself, then there's really no argument to be made.

Having been involved in the publishing world for a few years, I have seen plagiarism at work first hand. In fact, a writer for a magazine in Toronto was canned last year after her bosses found out she had plagiarized the majority of her work, some of which ended up being mine. I always took steps to protect myself, one of which being I always printed off every article I ever wrote, mailed it to myself and then filed the envelope away when I received it back. This way it was dated to prove that it was my work.

But, the groundpounder vs. munch mount case is different. A concept was created and made, which was left wide open other than attaching a name to it, which someone else borrowed, modified slightly to their own liking and reproduced it. No patents had to be recognized or monetary funds exchanged to licence the item due to their being no legal documents in place to protect it in the first place.

It's a closed case besides it being a personal grudge and those are never worth the time and/or effort spent on them.

Both products are good pieces of work and the bickering within a few threads lately is taking away from both of them.

What if Excalibur had taken the idea and made it their own without recognizing the originator? They still can, since it's not a protected product.

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Boo
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by Boo » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:24 pm

Lets suppose more and more of these Excal clones(which just about everyone loaths) come out and bite into Bill's business in a serious manner. Now do we all think Bill will continue the way he handles warranty? Would he continue to offer changes from time to time? Would he try to improve on anything? Does everyone think the money is paying just for the product? Is it possible that Todd or I have an idea that we want to bring out? Let me tell you that I will not because of the flagrant cabbaging. If Todd's situation were to be handled differently things would be better. Todd has had his stomach twisting from time to time, biting his lip. He does not deserve this. Did anyone offer Todd 5 or 10 bucks a copy? Look at the mounts all it is is Todd's with more metal around the top plate and slightly smaller diameter posts! That's all it is.
The answer to my question that Terry and his buddy avoided answering is it that we will see less innovations/inventions in the future. When an inventor does what he does and gets paid it pays or gives him incentive to do something else that we all want to see or use.
Awshucks wants me to do something with fishing bows but I just cannot bring myself to do it because of what happens here. Dan himself had a person or two trying to take claim to his invention. I guess he's lucky he didn't introduce it to the forum.
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SPITFIRE
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by SPITFIRE » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:39 pm

I don't think this is the place for all the bickering all it does is drag the forum down. just my 2 cents worth.
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groundpounder
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by groundpounder » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:50 pm

I am merely replying to a topic that has come up. I call them like I see them, I am just puting my words to see this time. Besides, 45 and Dr.dan have the Other Topics page covered with there bickering so I din't think there was room for this there :wink:
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huntman
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by huntman » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:01 pm

Although I believe GP should get FULL credit for the design, I don't think what has occurred here is that terrible. You have created a product that has demand in our world, you began to sell them and someone else has come along and tried to better it (not saying it is better). All I have to say is welcome to the business world,. Everyday company's compete with their products, if you didn't want this to happen maybe you should of never started selling them.
This is my 2 cents, I have no favoritism for either party. I do have a GP mount that I purchased from Brampton Mike many years ago. I do want another one for my other Excalibur but I want to see how this plays out first.
I am a business man and the most important thing I have learned is never knock your competitors take what their doing as gas to fuel you to be better!!

groundpounder
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by groundpounder » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:32 pm

Is there anything I can do about it, No. Should I be happy with it, No.
I believe this forum is full of alot of GREAT people and the reason this is the only forum that I get on. I also believe one should be able to speak their mind and give their honest opinion on something. If we all just sugar coat every topic and conversation on the forum in fear of ever stepping on someones toes we might not get very far(improvements). I do always try and be respectful in how I always post. This topic might be the exception for me though.

I guess I would like to wrap up my comments on this with the statement "put yourself in my shoes" and how would you react?
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DirtyGun
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by DirtyGun » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:44 pm

groundpounder wrote:I guess I would like to wrap up my comments on this with the statement "put yourself in my shoes" and how would you react?
I'd be kicking myself for not protecting my innovation, that's for sure. One of the number one rules of business is, if you come up with an idea, never share it until you protect it. Otherwise, everyone will be doing it.

If I was in your shoes, I'd just have to shrug my shoulders, say 'oh well, my fault for going to market without any form of patent or copyright protection' and move on. No amount of disdain is going to stop those that have taken the idea and ran with it on their own (and Terry isn't the only one...we have a couple folks in Southern Ontario who just don't market them that much).

Sorry...I can't really sugar-coat that for you. It's a tough pill to swallow.

But, hey...at least the idea wasn't how to run your car on water or anything. :wink:

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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by one shot scott » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:46 pm

.,;km,.
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wabi
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by wabi » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:04 pm

Sorry, but I don't own or use either mount.
I don't like the idea of having to put the arrow between the posts to load (had an old Horton with a front sight base that was similar and it was a pain to load), but that's just a personal dislike.
As for stealing the idea from Groundpounder, when the new Munchmount was announced I can remember being excited to see what the "new" design would be. When a picture was finally posted my first impression was, "That's just a copy of Groundpounder's mount!"
Not much you can do about it, but I'd feel slighted, too. At least he could admit it's just a copy of your design!

I could paint a fancy design on the limbs of my Phoenix and claim I'd designed a better crossbow, but the truth would be obvious. :wink:
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Big John
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by Big John » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:05 pm

Well..... I dont think it is right to do. If someone comes on here to ask questions or buy someones product just, to make their own and sell to the same people, like strings, arrows etc, that has been done, to bad, weird, but to bad. However, Groundpounder's mount was an original design from him, not been done yet, like arrows and strings, and deserves full credit, period. People constantly ask me how to make arrows, where to get supplies etc., then show up sellings arrows to the same people I do. Very weird, but it happens. Same goes for Strings and Stringmakers. Same happens to crazy I believe, but thats what happens. Lots of people think they can make a quick buck from something someone else does. It happens. Weird, but happens. Groundpounder is different and in this case he is being wronged and is expressing his opinion.
But it happens and it will happen again. Legally, to bad, morally, well....
On another note, there will soon be another beginner arrowmaker selling here soon I believe as well.
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Kelley
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Re: Am/Should I be mad???

Post by Kelley » Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:21 pm

John wrote:On another note, there will soon be another beginner arrowmaker selling here soon I believe as well.
It won't be me John.

I picked John's brain on a lot of the finer points of arrow making for my own use. When I ask about a saw he told me what I needed and then ask if I was going to be competing with him and Crazy Farmer. I thanked him for all the help and told him truefully that I was going to use the information for my own use. Thanks again John.
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