At what point is a bow "too fast"?

[Pydpiper]

Been watching the compound market for a new bow, I see they have them up to some pretty smoking speeds, crossbows too.
I was in my local bow shop the other day and the owner grabbed my arm and took me to a book, "wait till you see this bow I am getting in!" It was just that cursed looking PSE, I told him it was a restriceted weapon in Canada and you would not be able to hunt with it.
I even called PSE myself, they will be using the AR lower till later this year, then manufacturing their own.
Does it do the crossbow industry any good to make a bow that shoots 400FPS? There is a video of that PSE dropping a 3" group at 100 yards.
Those speeds are approaching the speed that requires a firearm to be registered, even a kids BB gun, once it hits 500 FPS it needs to be registered as a firearm here in Canada.
I for one see the technological jump as a leap backwards, so much effort put in to keeping archery as a seperate entity than firearms will soon be gone. A straight head will always say that archery is short range, but these companies trying to achieve firearm velocities are going to destroy archery as we know it. People see a video of a 3" group and it removes any doubt that they can shoot at game at that distance.
I love speed, I like fast bullets, fast arrows, but I really don't see any of this as an advancement. I strongly suspect that by the time my kids are old enough to hunt with archery equiptment they will simply be guns that shoot arrows.
I see a very unfortunate change in our bow hunting regulations coming down the pipes.

[Boo]

Limiting anything is a slippery slope at best(who decides, what is decided upon, who decides on the limits, when are mistakes recognized and rectified, who does it impact etc). I don't see how 400 or 500 ft/sec does anything but maybe give a deer less of a chance to not get poorly shot or worse I do not think it stretches our distance by much at all. I think when you get to approaching the point where it isn't up close and personal the game deviates from what archery is about (getting close) and that is where it is possibly bad for archery hunting.
I do know that discussions on these subjects have historically ended up badly at other forums.

[Pydpiper]

Limiting anything is a slippery slope at best(who decides, what is decided upon, who decides on the limits,

There is the problem, the "limits" have already been put in to place, here, in Ontario, once the velocity reaches 500 FPS that "firearm" has to be registered. What happens when crossbows achieve that speed? Does the MNR or CFO take it's typical route and blanket the whole thing with a new regulation? Ontario is very fast at removing our freedoms, and terribly slow at returnin them.
I can not see how any wording of any law will be able to differenciate between a bullet leaving a gun at 500+ or an arrow leaving a rail at 500+, the wording now doesn't use the word "bullet", it is merely a "projectile", an arrow is a projectile.
Don't get me wrong, I would be quite happy to own one, but I think this is a quick road to the destruction of progress we made as crossbow hunters.

[vixenmaster]

It becomes to fast when the feathers ignite or vanes melt! Lets get to the crux of this speed & Bows that shoot them. It all boils down to where you are able to hunt. By that i mean me fer example even a rifle here is short range, Why? Because its so thick even if i can see a deer move at 60 yds there isn't a clear shot! Those who get to hunt around fields meadows etc. or cut shooting lanes would benefit the most. A Scorpyd shooting a 400 gr arrow at 425 fps will give me no more range where i hunt than miss vixen. It will shave a fraction of a second off the reaction time of my tick toter, good fer me!

[Boo]

It would be interesting and benificial to this discussion if someone had facts on the relationship between various speed and a deer's reaction to set a description of what speed means to archery.

[crazyfarmer]

its to fast when its no fun to shoot and has so much vibration it throws off the shot..

i have no issue with speed as long as its accurate and fun to shoot

[Boo]

Limiting anything is a slippery slope at best(who decides, what is decided upon, who decides on the limits,

There is the problem, the "limits" have already been put in to place, here, in Ontario, once the velocity reaches 500 FPS that "firearm" has to be registered. What happens when crossbows achieve that speed? Does the MNR or CFO take it's typical route and blanket the whole thing with a new regulation? Ontario is very fast at removing our freedoms, and terribly slow at returning them.
I can not see how any wording of any law will be able to differentiate between a bullet leaving a gun at 500+ or an arrow leaving a rail at 500+, the wording now doesn't use the word "bullet", it is merely a "projectile", an arrow is a projectile.
Don't get me wrong, I would be quite happy to own one, but I think this is a quick road to the destruction of progress we made as crossbow hunters.

I don't have a problem with the 500 ft/sec limits(I might not be looking far sighted enough). At least it will discourage manufacturers from try to exceed it.

[Pydpiper]

It would be interesting and benificial to this discussion if someone had facts on the relationship between various speed and a deer's reaction to set a description of what speed means to archery.

I don't think that hunting has anything to do with it, we hunt the way we hunt, speed isn't going to change that.
It is the Laws that are about to change, again for Canada it means we have to keep the bow under lock and key, apply for a firearms licence if you don't already have one.
For the US guys, it just means a faster bow and thats cool too, the manufactures will never see our "500FPS" as a barrier, as long as there is a profit to be made they will still flog the market with what sells.
As far as hunting, the first thing PSE did when they reached those speeds is make a video of a 3" 100 yard group, I have a hard time imagining that not being an advantge in bowhunting. The "new guys" looking for a bow will never know about how the old timers like to keep their shots at 25 yards, and why would they have to?
It's just the damn laws that got me upset.
This is likely to have a pretty serious impact on Excalibur as a company, Canada houses a significant amout of people who hunt with a crossbow because they can't have a valid PAL. It's no mystery that licencing here is already lousy at best.
To he best of my knowledge, Bill and Cathy put a lot of time in to keep crossbows out of our registry, now they will be included by default. Just a sign of the times I guess.

[Boo]

David, you mean he bee in your bonnet is the law issue. Like you said in the PM to me it has been set. So when the arrow start exceeding the speeds the they will have serial numbers, be stored differently, ownership will be different etc. I would think that it would be based on speed of the individual bow would you not? Or are you saying this will give the bad guys another way to legislate us into submission?

[Cossack]

ANY bow is too fast when it's capability exceeds the capabilities of the shooter.
Just like magnum rifles, some folks can shoot them some can't. Speed will never compensate for poor shooting, no matter how fast the bullet, or arrow, gets there.

[sumner4991]

It's too fast or too technologically advanced when the effective range approaches that of a rifle. In some cases, this has already happened. There are guys out there that can consistantly shoot their bows(compound and crossbow) at 100 plus yards. It's getting to the point that your hunting buddy could shoot a deer out from under your stand and laugh about him getting it before you.

In states where the deer herd is increasing faster than the hunters, then effective range makes a good arguement for the majority(rifle hunters) to make a case for open season. Open seasons are already being discussed in some states. Do away with special seasons, afterall, Primative Weapons now have just as much range as most hunters use during rifle season. PW season and rifle season is much the same.

Therefore, looks to me like the archery manufacturers are trying hard to put themselves out of business. Instead of investing in more speed, they should invest in more hunters. More money needs to go toward education, less toward speed.

I, for one, am not opposed to speed limits. The Exomax man is OK with speed limits . . .I can't believe I just wrote that, but, it's very true.

[vixenmaster]

Pydpiper, i knowed you was talking of yer Government, its a shame they do the things they do. Ain't but one way to handle them vote their rumps out of office!

[Michael Stogre]

Before my last renewal I had a PAL (licence to acquire) that in addition to
the restricted and non-restricted categories included crossbows. To me that
indicated a law had been passed but never promulgated because I never had
to show my PAL when purchasing a crossbow. Does anyone know the
current status of the law on this?

MJS

[Stash]

From the RCMP website FAQ http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/faq/index-eng.htm#a4

Q. Do the licensing and registration requirements apply to bows?
Crossbows that can be aimed and fired with one hand and crossbows with an overall length of 500 mm (about 19.68 inches) or less are prohibited. You cannot lawfully possess or acquire a prohibited crossbow.

You do not need a valid licence or registration certificate to possess any other type of bow, including a crossbow that is longer than 500 mm and that requires the use of both hands. Criminal Code provisions making it an offence to acquire a crossbow without a valid licence were never brought into force.

Also: Pydpiper

There is the problem, the "limits" have already been put in to place, here, in Ontario, once the velocity reaches 500 FPS that "firearm" has to be registered. What happens when crossbows achieve that speed? Does the MNR or CFO take it's typical route and blanket the whole thing with a new regulation? Ontario is very fast at removing our freedoms, and terribly slow at returnin them.

I'm sure you know that the 500 fps and any firearms regulations other than hunting itself are a federal matter, not provincial. It's Canada that's "very fast at removing our freedoms, and terribly slow at returnin them", not only Ontario

[Michael Stogre]

Many thanks for the info that clarifies the situation.

MJS.