question on speed

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galamb
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Re: question on speed

Post by galamb »

Don't confuse "energy" with momentum or penetration depth.

Dr. Ed Ashby has written gobs on the topic, specifically on hunting arrows and how they penetrate game, hitting or not hitting bone, muscle, broadhead type etc etc etc.

To really (really really) simplify what he has shown through real world testing on game animals (not ballistics gel or soggy phone books) is as follows:

The amount of resistance to penetration increases "exponentially" as speed increases (his "non rocket science" example is hold your hand out the window of a car at 30 mph and compare that to 60 mph - at 60 you don't need to exert twice as much force to keep it in place you have to exert 4 times the force) - so impacting at 400 fps robs way more energy, due to resistance as compared with impacting at 200 fps - so yes, you still have "more power" but you lose more, all else being equal.

(so doubling your speed/KE does not double your penetration, it increases somewhere in the 25% range due to resistance)

Second of his major points is that KE is almost "meaningless" when talking about a hunting arrow impact - it's just a nice neat equation that marketers have grabbed onto and convinced you is of "ultimate importance".

He states that "slug force" is far more important. Slug force has more to do with momentum and weight of the arrow.

(again, layman's terms - it's easier to stop a smart car going down a hill than a tractor-trailer loaded with steel even if the car is travelling at 4 times the speed of the truck - the "weight" keeps moving it forward - I believe that's one of Newton's laws that predate Einstein by a good few years, and is actually proven)

So a slower, heavier arrow will meet less resistance to penetration on impact (so lose less of it's energy) and will take significantly longer to "slow down" after it does - so it will penetrate deeper unless the lighter faster arrow is many, many times faster (like on the order of 8 to 10 times).

He also compares wood to aluminum to carbon shafts (carbon shafts when "lubricated" with blood have way less resistance than wood or aluminum).

Also, 2 blade vs 3 blade vs mechanicals, vs angle of the ferrule - if you can study it, he has probably looked at and collected data.

He is also a great proponent of extreme Front of Center (FOC). He studied and (concluded) that extreme FOC helps "pull" the arrow through the animal compared to less FOC with the same momentum (some cool stuff).

Do a search for "Dr. Ashby arrow" (or the like - there is a great PDF document on file at one of the universities of his paper on the subject) and give yourself a couple of nights to try and digest what he has to say - it's uber technical (but he puts lot's of layman's notes to try and help explain (which you only need a physics degree to understand :))

EDIT to ad link - if anyone is interested, below all the pics on this link is the article broken down into a number of parts (and again, it's "heavy" reading)

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/Dr.-Ed-Ashby-W26.aspx
Graham

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wildcatter
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Re: question on speed

Post by wildcatter »

Limbs and Sticks wrote:
coolhl wrote:Whatever happened to Einstein's
E=mv2
Energy Equals mass times velocity squared?
Speed should account for more energy than mass.

Is it really a matter of energy or momentum of the arrow we are concerned about.
Must be a physicist among us who can explain this...
Norm
This explains it in simple terms
http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classe ... _reln.html


I did a test with a tractor tire, some here won't want to see it again, speed won hands down for penetration. 350gr arrow verse 500gr arrow.

Wes
I did my own test with arrows from 400 to 637 grains in my 380,,,,,the 637 grain arrow proven the rhinehart crossbow to go was not good enough for it, full pass thrus, I had to go to the Super Brute to keep the broadheads from coming out the other side,,,, all the other arrows didn't pass thru the crossbow to go target, and all used VPA COC broadheads, and all were shot with the exact same bow! this goes back to the old saying we've heard our entire life,,,,,don't send a boy to do a mans job!! :wink:
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xbowrook
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Re: question on speed

Post by xbowrook »

Thanks guys....not going to change much...going to 125 grain heads only because it's what I intend to hunt with, but am also putting in nockturnal flat nocks, so any weight I lose by going down to lighter broad heads will be gained back by the extra weight of the lighted nocks...I used my phone to video me shooting and it's not as loud as I thought... I also video taped me shooting at the target with my phone above target...man, this us fast, love it...once I pull the trigger the bolt is at the target already....awesome
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vixenmaster
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Re: question on speed

Post by vixenmaster »

Dr. Ashby was a self proclaimed expert, possibly a legend in his own mind. Actually KE has no real place in arrows, nor his made up slug force. Weight + velocity + its momentum. There comes a time where weight becomes a moot point, as an arrow can only reach velocity n momentum. After that the more weight you build an arrow the less momentum can be achived.
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paulaboutform
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Re: question on speed

Post by paulaboutform »

Limbs and Sticks wrote:
coolhl wrote:Whatever happened to Einstein's
E=mv2
Energy Equals mass times velocity squared?
Speed should account for more energy than mass.

Is it really a matter of energy or momentum of the arrow we are concerned about.
Must be a physicist among us who can explain this...
Norm
This explains it in simple terms
http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classe ... _reln.html


I did a test with a tractor tire, some here won't want to see it again, speed won hands down for penetration. 350gr arrow verse 500gr arrow.

I'd certainly love to see it. For hunting purposes I've always been in the middle trying to play a balancing act between weight and speed....while maintaining pinpoint accuracy at all yardages.

Paul
Wes
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DuckHunt
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Re: question on speed

Post by DuckHunt »

vixenmaster wrote: Remember it only takes so much energy to get a pass-through on a deer! After that yer jus seein how far the arrow will go or penetrate in anudder object.
Precisely. I try to keep my arrows below 370gr. I'll take the speed. At 350 fps, the only arrow to stay in a deer that I've ever fired was an intentional neck shot and it dropped in its tracks. I have recovered an arrow 80 yards beyond the pass through point! Maybe if I added 75 grains to my arrow it would have only went 40 yards beyond the pass through. At 350fps or faster, penetration is not an issue on deer sized game. :lol:

NOTE: I shoot mechanical heads. Fixed heads should have even better penetration.

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wildcatter
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Re: question on speed

Post by wildcatter »

DuckHunt wrote:
vixenmaster wrote: Remember it only takes so much energy to get a pass-through on a deer! After that yer jus seein how far the arrow will go or penetrate in anudder object.
Precisely. I try to keep my arrows below 370gr. I'll take the speed. At 350 fps, the only arrow to stay in a deer that I've ever fired was an intentional neck shot and it dropped in its tracks. I have recovered an arrow 80 yards beyond the pass through point! Maybe if I added 75 grains to my arrow it would have only went 40 yards beyond the pass through. At 350fps or faster, penetration is not an issue on deer sized game. :lol:

NOTE: I shoot mechanical heads. Fixed heads should have even better penetration.

DuckHunt
That may well be but I doubt you have heard anyone shooting 420 grain arrows having limb problems, that 70 grains is only going to get you 20 meaningless fps!!! I will also bet my life the majority that have limb problems are shooting arrows under 420 grains!!!! I also will assure you that a 350 grain arrow is nowhere near as quiet when fired in my bows than a 420 grain arrow, and noise is of no concern to me as I know a deer aint ducking anything I am shooting today,,, these are things that are fact, and more important to me than 20 MEANINGLESS FPS at best you have 3/4" less drop from 0-30 yards, and get there less than 2/100th of a second faster, those are facts!!!,,,, 20 fps all at the expense of being harder on your equipment,,,, like I said those are facts and I don't need to quote self proclaimed geniuses to prove it!!

I'm only a hunter though, not a rd target shooter, I have an 8" kill zone, it's never let me down and in my 60's now I don't see that ever changing..... :wink:
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xcaliber
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Re: question on speed

Post by xcaliber »

All good advice, now my honest opinion. After you have developed a sound routine of cocking your bow, and loading an arrow to a point where it is automatic, and you get past the dry fire probability stage through this routine, "it will never happen" :lol: But only then I would recommend putting a string of the Flemish Twist on made with performance materials and get that extra speed for the small investment. Yes, shoot arrows close to 400 grains for the sake of your limbs, and greater pass through weight. It is worth the extra speed, and slightly flatter trajectory, and Flemish Strings look better, and are stronger in the loops!

Good Luck, and many successful hunts!
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wildcatter
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Re: question on speed

Post by wildcatter »

xcaliber wrote:All good advice, now my honest opinion. After you have developed a sound routine of cocking your bow, and loading an arrow to a point where it is automatic, and you get past the dry fire probability stage through this routine, "it will never happen" :lol: But only then I would recommend putting a string of the Flemish Twist on made with performance materials and get that extra speed for the small investment. Yes, shoot arrows close to 400 grains for the sake of your limbs, and greater pass through weight. It is worth the extra speed, and slightly flatter trajectory, and Flemish Strings look better, and are stronger in the loops!

Good Luck, and many successful hunts!
My Flemish strings have never add fps to my settup, they are all I use and are used to quiet and improve consistencey, something else I see with lighter arrows, higher extreme spreads than 400 grain + give me. But I don't have my flemished strings built with minimum strands or minimum servings,,, but they and they last longer to!! :wink:
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Re: question on speed

Post by xcaliber »

Your bows came with performance material Endless Loop strings, not Dacron that are on the Mag Tip Models.
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Re: question on speed

Post by wildcatter »

Yes even my old Exomax that used dacron, I have used about any material over the years and still have flemish and endless loop made from Dacron to Excel and FF+ D97 Force 10 etc etc, even on the old exomax, I didn't gain speed with the flemish, but it was made with Dacron also. I would not use strings made with Dyneema or Spectra on any bow without a anti dry fire device, no need in taking a chance, even a well experienced shooter can forget an arrow now and then. Don't ask how I know, but I don't have them built for speed even on the bows with anti dry fire and high tech strings. Never did,,,never will, I will take forgiveness and I don't mean stretch, over speed any day,,,,,JMW
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Re: question on speed

Post by xcaliber »

I like speed without sacrificing my equipment to get it, but performance materials are all I use on mine. I look at it this way, if I drop my bow 25' from my stand, it's on me! :lol:
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Re: question on speed

Post by wildcatter »

just hope it don't have an arrow in it if that happens,,,, and if it does,,,,it's an excalibur,,,,so you just keep hunting!!
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Re: question on speed

Post by Limbs and Sticks »

Trying to post this tire pic board won't let me for some reason???
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