I shoot a slower bow than you do (Vixen II) and my total arrow weight is 394 grains (GT Laser II's, 110 brass insert, 100 grain Battle Axe broadheads).
My FOC is 22.5
I used to shoot Horton Bone Collectors (same 110 brass insert) for a total weight of 409 grains and almost 25 FOC.
The Bone Collectors shot the tightest groups ever but when Horton went down the tubes, Beman, who was making the bolts, didn't keep making them in their own line. So after trying at least 6 or 8 other bolts I finally settled on the Laser 2's.
And yes, the Laser II is no longer available but it looks like the Swift/Swift Pro line @ 7.3 grains/inch is the rough equivalent (the LII's were 7.5/inch)
Shooting extreme FOC numbers is not for everyone or every crossbow, but I have found, at least with Excal's slower bows (Vix II, Ibex, Axiom), that putting a ton of weight out front keeps the groups tight - as long as you can live with a trajectory that looks a little more like a lobbed pitch
I don't buy into the "speed kills" theory so I would rather shoot "heavy" than "fast" - besides, even shooting heavy I'm making 272 fps which is "blistering" compared to my sub-150 fps recurve...
Graham
Micro 340TD, 17" Gold Tip Ballistics (180 gr inserts) - 125 gr Iron Will/VPA/TOTA (504 grains total/21.6% FOC) @ 301 FPS
Yer troubles are in yer arrows. You need to get all yer arrows hittin a 1" group at 20 yds. You may need to mark a vank as cock n go thru each one to get them all hitin right. When you get yer arrows right you can then start to tune on yer BH's
Once arrows are cleared of suspicion, if results are again heads all over then the symptoms would resemble planing... a smaller profile head while keeping weight around 350 ,(pardon the redundancy, you are acknowledged to be weight and f.o.c. conscious)) might help.
The Axiom will perform.
Axiom.S.M.F.
S5s,cheek piece,firebolts, Original Rocket Steel heads.
Bushnell yardage pro on Excalibur mount.
galamb wrote:I don't buy into the "speed kills" theory so I would rather shoot "heavy" than "fast" - besides, even shooting heavy I'm making 272 fps which is "blistering" compared to my sub-150 fps recurve...
Thank you again for your continued assistance. I really appreciate you posting your FOC numbers.
I am of the same thought process as you are - I lean more towards heavy than fast. I learned that with my longbow and recurve. The lightest and fastest only equalled a noisy bow, and there was questionable penetration of the target at times. Heavy and slower made for a much quieter bow and a loud thump as it hit the target and penetrated much deeper. The secret was finding the right combo of weight and speed to produce the results I wanted. Again - I appreciate your help. I think I'm on the right track now. Will update again after my order comes in.
Im shooting the slick trick x bow heads in 100 gr and absolutely love them i havent got a chance at a deer with them yet but they are flying great at 60 yds and im shooting firebolts out of an equinox they arent that expensive in my opinion u can get them online for about 33$ US .... alot of good advice given here i hope u get your problem squared away before hunting season good luck
cajuntec wrote:I'm shooting an Excalibur Axiom SMF, and using the Excalibur Firebolt bolts. It was recommended to me that I use a 150 grain head when I bought it. As 150's are difficult to find around here, I started looking around. I had some 125 grain Razorcaps that have the interchangeable ferrules, so I bought the 80 grain ferrules to turn them into 150's.
I'm shooting at 20 yards. My first broadhead tipped bolt went high and left. So I adjusted my scope. My next bolt went high and WAY right. Ok. I adjusted too much (I thought). So back down just a hair. Now I missed the target completely to the RIGHT of the target and my bolt went way down range (I retrieved it). That was odd, because I had adjusted the scope to make it go the other way. I'll save you the rest of a boring read as I went though a few dozen shots and adjustments. No two arrows flew anywhere close to the same, even when I didn't make adjustments.
I checked the scope - everything is nice and tight.
Loaded up some 150 grain field tip bolts. Bullseye on first shot. About an inch to the right on my second shot. Bullseye on third shot. About an inch to the left on my fourth shot. About an inch to the right on the fifth shot. Bullseye on sixth shot. I'm grouping well with them.
So now I know - It ain't the scope, and it ain't the crossbow (or the bolts). Its the broadheads.
So I came on here to see what everyone is shooting, and now I'm seeing a lot of you shooting 100 and 125 grain. So now I'm very confused.
What broadhead would you recommend, and what grain? I'm going to be hunting deer and pigs, so if there is a different recommendation for each, that's fine as well. I need to get this figured out fairly quick so I can order what I need and get it sighted in. Thanks in advance for any advice you can provide!
All the best,
Glenn
I too shoot an axiom. I had the exact same problem! Broadheads missing the target completely! I upgraded to a fast flight flemish string and using heavier bolts(went with aluminum) and 100grain broadheads the extra speed and weight made the fixed blades fly better. But if you really want field point accuracy go with a mechanical! I'm using the excalibur xact mechanicals and they fly exactly like a field point! Bullseyes from thirty and forty yards every time! Also try a 4 blade head they tend to be more stable in flight! Everyone has their favorites but our slower crossbows are limited! Go with a mechanical! You'll have all the confidence in the world after a few shots! Good luck and if you find something your axiom shoots well please inbox me! I'd love to know
Axiom smf
Flemish string
S5s
Dissaptor bars
Easton black max
Excalibur Xact mechanicals
cajuntec wrote:Graham,
No problem. Thank you for the continued help.
I've never really been a fan of Easton arrows, and I wish I had my reading glasses on to see the Easton logo in the lower right hand corner of the shaft label before I purchased a half-dozen more with the bow package. So now I have 10 of these. Gold Tip is what I've used in my compounds since 2002 (along with the GT Trad series in my longbow). I've always liked the accuracy and consistency of the GT shafts, and I like the fact that Gold Tip doesn't change most of their lineup every couple of years like Easton does. I have GT Hunter shafts from 2002 (the ones that only have the gold writing on them) and new GT XT Hunter shafts (green wrap with the XXX's on each side). They might not be "exactly" the same, but they are so close that changing from one to the other didn't require massive amounts of tweaking, or changes to my rest due to shaft diameter. Not so with Easton. I gave up on Easton for my compound because of the constant changes in their lineup. If I had a dozen arrows that flew perfectly in my bow, there was a very good chance I'd not be able to buy exact or even close replacements a short time later.
A good friend of mine also shoots GT Laser II's. I looked at GT, but they no longer list the Laser II. But in looking at shaft weight, and comparing to the weight chart that Excalibur has, it looks like most of the shafts GT offers are WAY lighter than the recommended weight, necessitating a much heavier head, or the brass inserts / weights to get the weight up (resulting in a higher FOC). As I was not aware of what FOC I could get away with, I was leaning towards getting GT shafts that were closer in weight to the recommended shaft (which is why I was originally sticking with the Firebolts - Excalibur showed them as 265 grains at 20" without the tip. As they recommend 350 grains at a minimum, adding anything over a 85 grain head would put me at 350 and above. The only thing in the GT lineup right now that is comparable in weight is the Nitro or Nitro Pro. They are 278 grains at 20".
Any of the other GT bolts would probably require a significant amount of weight.
Ballistics and Ballistic Pro's are 170 grains at 20". So I'd have to add 180 grains.
Swifts and Swift Pro's are 146 grains at 20". So I'd have to add 204 grains.
As the brass inserts are 110 grains, I wouldn't have a problem getting there, but since I'm unfamiliar with how much the high FOC affects crossbow bolts, I didn't know what was recommended. I know what the recommended FOC is for all of my other arrows, but haven't delved deep enough to find out the recommended FOC for these bolts. That's what I'm researching today.
You are right that I didn't expect as much tuning as I have done with my other bows. I have those others down to a science, done over an extensive amount of time. My arrows are all weighed, sorted, labeled, numbered, and tracked in a notebook I keep. I did not believe that getting a crossbow would give me any advantage over a vertical bow. My sole reason for getting it was so that my 12 year old can hunt during archery season, as he is simply not strong enough to pull back a vertical bow of sufficient weight to humanely kill an animal. He drills the target with this crossbow though, so I'm hoping to get it all figured out before the start of the season next month. He's shooting at what I consider to be very reasonable distances for most bows - within 25 yards. Most of his shot opportunities should be right at 20 yards - the distance between the ground blind and feeder.
Thanks again for the reply and advice. I'm eventually going to get some GT arrows; if not for anything other than I prefer GT over Easton. But for the time being, I just ordered some Slick Trick 150 grain broadheads to see what they will allow us to do with the current bolt setup. If it goes all to heck, my friend offered to send me some of his Laser II's with brass inserts to try. Midway had the Laser II's, but they are half-moon nocks, which I've been told to never use with my Excalibur crossbow.
All the best,
Glenn
I have to put my two cents in here lol. I shoot half moon nocks and have never ever had a problem! I've also asked on this forum about half moon nocks and many others will agree with me! I shoot an axiom with a flemish string and only shoot moon mocked bolts and I have never had a dry fire or partial dry fire! I know they are not recommended but don't let that hold you back! I used to use the firebolts and flat nocks. As long as the bolt is put in properly and you don't forget to put the odd coloured feather down you shouldn't have a problem. Don't take my word for it look around there are others who will agree with me. In my opinion shoot what feels good and what works best for you!
Axiom smf
Flemish string
S5s
Dissaptor bars
Easton black max
Excalibur Xact mechanicals
[quote="cajuntec"]Graham,
No problem. Thank you for the continued help.
I've never really been a fan of Easton arrows, and I wish I had my reading glasses on to see the Easton logo in the lower right hand corner of the shaft label before I purchased a half-dozen more with the bow package. So now I have 10 of these. Gold Tip is what I've used in my compounds since 2002 (along with the GT Trad series in my longbow). I've always liked the accuracy and consistency of the GT shafts, and I like the fact that Gold Tip doesn't change most of their lineup every couple of years like Easton does. I have GT Hunter shafts from 2002 (the ones that only have the gold writing on them) and new GT XT Hunter shafts (green wrap with the XXX's on each side). They might not be "exactly" the same, but they are so close that changing from one to the other didn't require massive amounts of tweaking, or changes to my rest due to shaft diameter. Not so with Easton. I gave up on Easton for my compound because of the constant changes in their lineup. If I had a dozen arrows that flew perfectly in my bow, there was a very good chance I'd not be able to buy exact or even close replacements a short time later.
A good friend of mine also shoots GT Laser II's. I looked at GT, but they no longer list the Laser II. But in looking at shaft weight, and comparing to the weight chart that Excalibur has, it looks like most of the shafts GT offers are WAY lighter than the recommended weight, necessitating a much heavier head, or the brass inserts / weights to get the weight up (resulting in a higher FOC). As I was not aware of what FOC I could get away with, I was leaning towards getting GT shafts that were closer in weight to the recommended shaft (which is why I was originally sticking with the Firebolts - Excalibur showed them as 265 grains at 20" without the tip. As they recommend 350 grains at a minimum, adding anything over a 85 grain head would put me at 350 and above. The only thing in the GT lineup right now that is comparable in weight is the Nitro or Nitro Pro. They are 278 grains at 20".
Any of the other GT bolts would probably require a significant amount of weight.
Ballistics and Ballistic Pro's are 170 grains at 20". So I'd have to add 180 grains.
Swifts and Swift Pro's are 146 grains at 20". So I'd have to add 204 grains.
As the brass inserts are 110 grains, I wouldn't have a problem getting there, but since I'm unfamiliar with how much the high FOC affects crossbow bolts, I didn't know what was recommended. I know what the recommended FOC is for all of my other arrows, but haven't delved deep enough to find out the recommended FOC for these bolts. That's what I'm researching today.
You are right that I didn't expect as much tuning as I have done with my other bows. I have those others down to a science, done over an extensive amount of time. My arrows are all weighed, sorted, labeled, numbered, and tracked in a notebook I keep. I did not believe that getting a crossbow would give me any advantage over a vertical bow. My sole reason for getting it was so that my 12 year old can hunt during archery season, as he is simply not strong enough to pull back a vertical bow of sufficient weight to humanely kill an animal. He drills the target with this crossbow though, so I'm hoping to get it all figured out before the start of the season next month. He's shooting at what I consider to be very reasonable distances for most bows - within 25 yards. Most of his shot opportunities should be right at 20 yards - the distance between the ground blind and feeder.
Thanks again for the reply and advice. I'm eventually going to get some GT arrows; if not for anything other than I prefer GT over Easton. But for the time being, I just ordered some Slick Trick 150 grain broadheads to see what they will allow us to do with the current bolt setup. If it goes all to heck, my friend offered to send me some of his Laser II's with brass inserts to try. Midway had the Laser II's, but they are half-moon nocks, which I've been told to never use with my Excalibur crossbow.
All the best,
Glenn[/quote
Please let me know what you come up with! I'm shooting the same bow!
Axiom smf
Flemish string
S5s
Dissaptor bars
Easton black max
Excalibur Xact mechanicals
I also shoot an Axiom with the string that came on it.How ever,I shoot Easton 2219 aluminum arrows with the 150 grain Bolt Cutters.Once sighted in at 20 yards with the broadhead,I moved back to 50 yards and sighted in while shooting from a bench rest.I have a Varizone scope so the speed has to be adjusted when shooting at different distances.Once the proper speed setting was found,all my shots will hit a dixie cup size bullseye up to 50 yards.If I switch to a 150 grain field point,I cannot hit the bullseye past 20 yards.I no longer shoot field points for practice.Since deer opening is Oct. 1 here,I practice using my broadheads.I prefer using aluminum arrows for the penetration factor.Since I don't shoot past 20 yards,my accuracy is almost perfect depending what the deer is doing when I make the shot.
If you would like to try mechanical broad heads I would highly recommend you try the Dead Ringers. I use the 125 grain 3 blade rampage 2'cut and they fly exactly like my field points!!! they are deadly on killing as well!
I realized today that I hadn't come back to update this post. The 150 grain Slick Trick's did the job! I was smacking bullseyes with them in no time, consistently. Today, I took them out for the real test - Opening Day, TX Whitetail Deer season.
I shot my (first ever) buck today with one! Not a huge deer, but a nice 7 pointer that will put meat in the freezer. This is an excellent broadhead. I recovered the broken bolt, removed, disassembled, and cleaned the broadhead, and it is now attached to a new bolt in the quiver, ready to do battle again.
Thanks for all the help. As these bolts are working great now with these new broadheads, I'll finish out the season with them before I look at something different. But I have a feeling I'm going to still be using these Slick Tricks on whatever I replace the bolts with when that time comes!
