Antler point restrictions

[grouse]

I have complained about this subject before but it still really annoys me. My farm is in northern Missouri where bucks have to have at least 4 points one side to be legal (button bucks are excluded). This is my fourth year to crossbow hunt and though I have killed does and button bucks every year, I have yet to even shoot at a legal buck. This morning I was hunting in a stand that is located in the southeast corner of a crop field. It was cloudy and legal shooting hours began at 6:37. At 6:49 a buck emerged from the woods and walked within 15 yards of me. He was a large deer and I could see 3 points on his right side (the side closest to me). In the dim light (the only time I ever see bucks close up) I could not see if he had brow tines. I had to let him go, as I have done with bucks every year I have hunted. I'm not a trophy hunter and I have killed one doe this year and I have passed on several others (I don't want to get too much venison too early). I'm having fun, but I would sure like to be able to shoot at a buck without staring and trying to count points. It isn't always easy and I bet a lot of 6 pointers are being killed illegally.

[TPM]

What's the logic behind the four point rule?

[Hunt it]

Each to his own, but if you are not a trophy Hunter why would you even bother shooting bucks? Does taste better and there is more of them.

[racking up points]

I hunt in an area with APRs and it helps to have a quality optic in situations like that. With a good scope, you'd be able clearly spot brow tines on a buck, especially at that yardage. Same scenario played out for me on the weekend, I wasn't going to shoot the little 8-pt, but I wanted to know if he was legal...he was.

[Waif]

What's the logic behind the four point rule?

Depending on the health of the deer and their habitat...
an A.P.R.(antler point restriction) addresses a social issue among humans who want to see older/ bigger bucks.
Usually a majority is required but not necessary depending on how the entity in charge operates.
The basic goal is to allow more yearling bucks with their first set of antlers to make it through their first hunting season.
Areas vary...some lack brow tines or have stunted racks, antlers being a luxury,, and restrictions should be modified to allow smaller racks as legal in such areas if population allows a buck kill of any significance..

[L. E. Carroll]

Washington state is that way almost thruout the state...Their reasoning is if all or most of the bucks in a given area are taken before the rut occures, then does do not get bread... By letting them grow to 3 points ( on at least one side ) as it is in Eastern Wa. it allows the hold over of spikes and fork horns to do part of the necessary breeding before becoming table fare... As a side effect, since this point restriction went into effect, I have seen more big bucks than have been available in years.

In western Wa we are so much brushier and wet.. The Blacktail bucks are there but the bigger ones are very nocturnal with the exception of a very short rutting period....still very hard to find even then.... Due to this, many hunting units over here do allow fork horns and in some even "Any Buck" to be taken...

BTW, crossbows are only legal during modern seasons for deer and elk, unless you qualify for the very hard to get special handicap crossbow permit ( as you can for a physical reason, not pull a verticle bow of at least 40# the min. bow weight for big game. ) this option allows me to still hunt the archery season.

Gene

[Starvin' Hillbilly]

Arkansas for years was bucks only, anything w/ bone out of the skull was dead. no doe's whatsoever. this caused our doe's to explode. in arkansas the general consensus was hunters wanted to shoot bigger racked bucks so i guess for the last 10 years (?) we've had the 3 point rule (3 one one side). now our harvest is 2 bucks and 2 doe's but, if you strictly arrow hunt you can kill up to 5 doe's.

-ken

[Cibby]

When I was young in the late 1960's and up to the late 1980's Northwest Pennsyvania had tremendous deer herds. It was common in the Allegany National Forest and in McKean and Potter county to see 20,30 or more deer a day in deer season. I would see groups of 8,10,12 bucks in late summer. There was no thought of rack restrictions like we have today. Here we must have 3 points on one side today. Our doe license back when I was young would be some where around 1000 for the county. In the last 20 years it has grown to 22,000 doe permits in McKean County alone. Needless to say we have very few deer which makes the timber companies very happy because this area in know for its valuable cherry trees. We are loosing young hunters at an alarming rate because kids don't see a deer for an entire season. The rack restrictions were put in back in the early or mid 2000's so every season you see a small handful of nice racks which makes our game commission look good. Even that small handful of nice rack bucks are shrinking. The rack restrictions were put in so you would see a few of those nice bucks. Back when I was young not having any restrictions never hurt the deer herd and you would see even more trophy bucks taken in a season. So it makes no sense.the timber companies that control timber rights in our forests wanted the deer herd reduced to about nothing now they have it. We have rack restrictions so the game commission can show a couple of those big racks and keep selling licenses.

[nchunterkw]

Cibby
I grew up in SW PA in the 70's and 80's. Back then PA's deer gun season was 2 weeks of buck only - anything with 3" on 1 side was legal - and then 2 days of doe season - which equated to many deer drives. But also back then a hunter could only harvest 1 deer. So many bucks were killed each year that I can probably count on my hand how many bucks of any kind I saw growing up. When Gary ALT took over managing PA's deer herd over 90% of all bucks were being killed and the deer herd was in a real mess - totally out of whack buck to doe ratio. Something needed to be done.

One thing I think guys don't understand either is how a bucks horns grow. When they are born they are button bucks the first year. The next year (1 1/2 Y.O.) if everything is perfect for them they might have forks but most often not. But when they are 2 1/2, that small spike will most likely be a nice 6 or 8 pointer and about as wide as his ears. Years 3 1/2 to 5 1/2 are the prime time. and after that the racks start to diminish some but more just start getting weird. So all of those "bigger racks" etc that everyone is seeing because of alter restriction are probably only 2 1/2 year old deer. One year does make that much of a difference....spike --> 8 pt.

If you are up near Cooks Forest, there is a guy up there that raises deer and has the racks of a bunch of deer (sheds) displayed for each year of their life. If you can check it out it is very interesting, and you will see exactly what I mean about 1 year being a big deal. DNRs are necessarily managing so people see big racks, it's just a by product of letting 1 1/2 yr olds grow up 1 more year.

[Waif]

Pa. has seen hunter dissatisfaction in it's herd size.
Here in Michigan many areas were allowed liberal doe harvests too and the herd greatly reduced.
While the remaining deer and habitat do better hunter satisfaction does not necessarily.
Carrying capacity,habitat effects, social acceptance/concerns make quite a deal of figuring an acceptable herd level.
There are areas here with greater A.P.R.'s than the traditional 3 inch or longer that are seeing older bucks.
Still a social debate among hunters....sometimes quite lively.
Private lands seem to see greater effect sooner ,depending on habitat and it's nutrition and holding capacity.
Winter severity in some areas and predator's depredation factor too.
Farm Bureau and insurance companies too a point also.

[IroquoisArcher]

Just to add my 2 cents worth. Area I'm in here in PA is 4 on one side to be legal while other areas of the state are 3. Now the PGC has an "assumed" brow tine so my area is now a 3 up and other areas are 2 up.
Yes Gary Alt brought the idea and founding I believe for PA's antler restrictions-AR (he showed what deer antler size could be by letting them grow...only thought at the time had seen one he was comparing came from his enclosed lease as the larger rack). Now there are certain exceptions to the antler restriction rule state wide, junior hunters, mentored youth (have seen them as young as 4 years old getting monster bucks...yeah right Dads-mentors), disabled with permit, resident active duty military personel being allowed to kill a deer with either 2 or more points to a side or else a spike at least 3" long. Doesn't this count into reducing the larger buck potential? So you may think it doesn't as this is only a small part of PA's hunters then why not allow senior hunters in this grouping. (My Dad is 83 and in the last 13(?) years with antler restrictions he has only seen 2 legal bucks, mainly running so no chance of a shot (rifle)...this is my main point here I guess) Isn't this just another small minority? Or is it considered more as the population itself is becoming older?
Guess this mainly rambled but do see both sides but also see the doe harvest being to the point that doe license alotments is the main cause for less deer, meaning button bucks included as "doe". So if that 1 year makes a difference then the button buck kill as does to me is more of a problem then forcing the majority to be forced to wait for an AR deer.
I don't see any way to please everybody and you'll always have disagreements.