Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

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Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by racking up points » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:32 pm

I want to start a discussion here regarding how much smaller, lighter and faster we could see recurve crossbow technology in the future. Totally speculative, I know. But I was thinking, 10 years ago it would've been considered impossible to get arrow speeds at 400 fps, much less on a platform smaller than an Exomax! The Matrix changed everything, then followed the Micro and now the bullpup Micro and bows have gotten lighter, smaller and by in large, faster. I look at the archery industry in general and the trend is similar - smaller, lighter, faster. I look at recurves and I see limits to how narrow and short we can ever get, (barring some newer materials with enhanced properties). I also think that there are limits how fast we can get with recurves. I do know that we can shave some weight. Enough rambling...

What do you think our recurves will feature 10 years from now?
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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by foofoo » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:55 pm

as far as recurves unless materials in the limbs change i think we are stalled for now. draw weights are too much now. they only other performance gain i can think of would be a way to transfer energy to a lighter arrow safely.

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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by racking up points » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:56 pm

foofoo wrote:as far as recurves unless materials in the limbs change i think we are stalled for now. draw weights are too much now. they only other performance gain i can think of would be a way to transfer energy to a lighter arrow safely.
I was thinking something along the lines of an Oneida bow. If you're not familiar, they are "recurves" with a hinged limb and cams/cables.

Image

It got me to thinking, and yes I know this is a crazy idea, but maybe there's some way to make a reverse draw recurve using a hinged recurve limb instead of reverse draw cams. If this were somehow possible, you could take full advantage of power stroke and reduce the length of the platform.

At what, 7# bare bow on a Micro? ###------->How light do you guys figure we could get a recurve down to using different materials?
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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by Carnivorous » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:03 pm

Reverse draw re-curve would be wicked!!!
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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by aib1015 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:22 pm

Maybe you could sandwich a thin strip of titanium or other light flexible metal in the center of an Excalibur limb.

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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by longbow joe » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:21 pm

Maby im pessimistic but i think the micro is already pushing the limit . You can only flex a foot n a half of fiberglass so much. Untill some space age fiberglass comes about just think since the pre wold war 2 times nothing better has come along untill the carbon thing came about . Lbj ..The pesimist
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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by nyexhunter » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:38 pm

One of my first vertical bows was an Onieda many years ago. The engineering was amazing, the durability was not.
After the top limb blew up (flew off and down held only by the internal cable) on me when target practicing, I switched to more conventional and relatively more reliable vertical compound designs.
Fortunately at the time I was too ignorant/unaware to be shocked when the bow blew up on me - it was more of a what just happened moment than a shaking scared moment. I remained very wary for a long time when practicing after that.
Can't imagine what 4X the additional pressure with a crossbow on the hinged parts would do - no thank you.
I'll stick with the simple design of the Matrix and the reliability that goes along with that, I'm thrilled with what I have now.

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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by longbow joe » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:04 pm

I would rather see them lighten the darn things up a full pound or so "We can make crossbows light again." Hey peter how bout a micro light ...see it even sounds cool. Instead of adding stuff that makes em quiet n heavy. Make some for the others that are loud n lite!
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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by racking up points » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:20 pm

longbow joe wrote:I would rather see them lighten the darn things up a full pound or so "We can make crossbows light again." Hey peter how bout a micro light ...see it even sounds cool. Instead of adding stuff that makes em quiet n heavy. Make some for the others that are loud n lite!
This is part of the reason I started the thread. If there is no other way for recurves to go, it's gotta be lighter. If smaller and faster isn't going to pan out until a new material becomes popular then it's time to start shedding weight. Our bows are already light, but why stop there?

Re: The Onieda concept, I'm just spitballing an idea. I saw an Excal/Oneida prototype once that used a Paradox mainframe and Oneida limbs. Orienting them somehow for reverse draw is an idea but I wouldn't want to own the Frankenbomb I'm dreaming up, but where else can a recurve platform go? Are we at the point where speed has been maxed out and the platforms can't get any smaller for the next decade? I doubt it, I just don't know what that recurve crossbow of the future is going to look like.
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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by racking up points » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:56 pm

ArcheryAddict wrote:They could make the stock and rail out of carbon kinda like th Hoyt Carbon Defiant's. Or they could just make the rail out of some kind of composite like skorpyd did with the death stalker. The carbon like the Hoyt would be lighter but it would also be more expensive. The carbon is a lot more dead in the hand than aluminum is at the shot. The carbon is also awesome on a cold winters day setting in the stand because it don't get cold like aluminum does.
This is where I hope they might be headed. Older long-limbed Middletons were quite a bit lighter than a Matrix so there's room to lose weight from machining before going to the use of carbon fibre or composite. I bet a 5# bare bow is doable in the next 10 years.
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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by newbie » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:31 am

IMHO the micro is perfect as is weight wise.
You shed weight from the stock its nose heavy. You would have to shed some up front.
whats easier to hold on target better a 6lb rifle or 8?
me i want some weight to a point. Shed too much here and there doesnt always make a better handling bow, just a bow easier to carry in, for me weight is a non issue.
I would rather see more options.
camo choice
rail choice...
heck even polish the top a little.
SCOPE UPGRADE choice etc
improve the triggers so they are consistent from bow to bow.
ADD stringing aid with every bow.
release this crank that we all think they have coming.
With some of this though comes extra cost.... i know that some feel they are getting too pricey as is.
Instead of asking how small light and fast maybe ask how much are you willing to pay :lol:
Last edited by newbie on Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by Bowmack72 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:15 am

I would just like to see the price point come down. If the 350 SE can be sold for $550 then why is the Matrix 380 double the price. all of the Matrix use the same limbs don't they? I just don't know why can't they just offer the bow, scope and rope cocker at a cheaper price point and let us upgrade as funds become available. Just my opinion.
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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by longbow joe » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:05 am

I agree bomack ...but why does a corvette cost twice as much as a camaro.. lts that speed thing its prestigious and costs a lot a money lol.
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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by papabear1 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:58 am

Personally, I think we are putting too much interest in >speed< we have totally got away from the things that got a lot of us into archery in the first place,
when I killed my first deer w/ archery I think the i.b.o. was somewhere around
120 fps that's probably not right but, my memory is getting bad at my age, :oops: we put our training into stealth, and we didn't have camoflauge that was very good, and we used the wind to control our odor, :wink:
any way what I mean to say is WHY !!!!!!!


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Re: Recurves - How Small, How Light and How Fast?

Post by Bowmack72 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:15 am

longbow joe wrote:I agree bomack ...but why does a corvette cost twice as much as a camaro.. lts that speed thing its prestigious and costs a lot a money lol.
I get your analogy but I don't think its the same thing. The Corvette and Camaro are 2 completely different cars. They share nothing in design. lets take 3 different excals for example. the Matrix 310, 330, 355. My undestanding is that the only major difference is the length of the rail to get the higher speeds. If you look on Wyvern's website at bare bow cost the 310 is $625, 330 is $600 and the 355 is $730 (all rounded of course). Since the 310 is slower than the 330, it kind of throws out the faster is more expensive rule. I think it is more of what the consumer is willing to pay for a certain model than anything else and that all has to do with marketing and playing to our HUGE egos.
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