Are we nuts?

Crossbow Hunting

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Boo
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Are we nuts?

Post by Boo » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:14 am

This is not to say good or bad about anything or any body, just an observation. It seems to me that marketing has really taken it's foot hold in the hunting community. The need for speed has taken over bow purchases. When you look at what slower bows have done in the past, it kinda makes me scratch my head and to some degree I think I'm caught up in it too or maybe I was.
While many of us here are pretty happy with speeds well above the 300 ft/sec mark, I find myself thinking a bit more would be nice. Well ain't that something! Years ago Bill Troubridge took an elephant with a 350 ft/sec bow and years before that a stinking carved tipped Vixen, probably going 250 ft/sec took one year's Ontario record bull moose. My first deer taken with a crossbow was a carved tipped Exocet, probably spitting arrows out at 260 ft/sec. I thought nothing of the speed. When the Exocet 200 came out, well I had to have that because it was faster. When I got a 405, I thought I arrived at the promised land! Crap, I even bought one years "fastest bow in the world" a Scorpyd! the 400 gr arrows went 425 ft/sec!! Yeeha! :shock: Now a days, I find myself reaching for my 315 Micro or my 360 Katana to hunt with. :wink:
One of the things I've learned is that 350/360 ft/sec is where arrows start to get fussy. Primarily, but not limited to, more consistent spine and better broadhead alignment starts to create havoc in accuracy. Higher speed bows are certainly harder on strings, arrows, our bodies, targets etc. But does it make us better hunters? We certainly are fussing over our bows more than we did, so are we concentrating on equipment more and not putting an appropriate amount of time into hunting (scouting, planning, shed hunting)? Are we getting impatient and taking longer shots or not passing on some shots? Are we trying to buy a deer in the end?
I'll say it again, I am not accusing anyone. I'm just musing. :mrgreen:
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Bcxbow
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by Bcxbow » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:23 am

Good observations and point of view Don. It certainly made me stop and think about some of my own actions and intentions.
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by grouse » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:46 am

Native Americans, Indigenous people, Indians - whatever you prefer to call them (and I totally admire and respect them) used stick bows with draw weights of around 30 -35 pounds on average. They used the straightest limbs they could find for shafts and fastened a variety of feathers for vanes and added sharpened rocks for broad heads. They took bison, moose, grizzly bears, etc. with this equipment and provided food and fur for their people for thousands of years. They (of course) liked rifles when they could get them, but they knew that hunting skills were more important than technology.

My first crossbow was an Axiom and several times I watched lighted nocks disappear in a deer only to spot them glowing, stuck in the ground on the other side of where the deer had been standing. My Axiom was plenty of bow and I only bought a 350SE because I couldn't resist such an excellent value. There is a point where the extra power of a crossbow only results in burying the arrow deeper into the ground or a tree.
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by Normous » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:46 am

Maybe I'm nuts ( or guilty) after walking away from the ATA with the latest Scorpyd Aculeus that crono'd a 400 grain arrow at 465 fps. If you would have told me 10 years ago that crossbows would shoot 465 fps in the future I would have thought you were nuts.

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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by otisbrazwell » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:05 am

ravens killing it here in rhode island .my friend sold 32 of them so far and some have shot deer @ 92 yrds . there is a small
gang that uses Excalibur im one and i get my nuts busted because the bd400 is not shooting advertised speed. but i would
not buy the raven its to complicated and ugly. you are right the need for speed has taken over the market. :arrow:

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Tangle Eye
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by Tangle Eye » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:05 am

Good thought provoking comments Don. I've gone from longbow to recurve to compound to crossbow (Excal - not a compound) mainly to make it easier on myself. But I sure see the temptation of speed. Back when I was shooting a longbow the guys at our indoor range used to kid me about using the chronograph just out of curiosity to see how fast my wood arrows were going. They suggested I needed a calendar instead. :lol:
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janesy
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by janesy » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:12 am

I think what we have seen in the recent past was a bit of a speed bubble. It probably happens every few years or wahtever.
Just look at the offerings of this year from excalibur. All slower, more ergonomically friendly, supposedly quieter bows marketed well and sell well.
With that said most of the comments on the boards these days are praising the BD330. As they should. But this time two years ago, no chance that model would have made it to market. TOO SLOW.

I like chasing speed, neck a custom micro to do just that. But I also really really appreciate my 315, for all of its benefits.

I thinks its probably safe to say that we are all part of the exception. I would hazard a guess that the low to mid 300's probably encompass the majority of crossbow sales. And those folks just hunt. And really don't care how many fps a tighter helical came takes away lol
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by Cw.abeljr » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:18 am

Very good thread with eye opening remarks.... deer taken at 92 yards, I'm sorry if this remark offends anyone but I wouldn't even think about shooting that far. I have more respect for the animal than to attempt that shot. My 335 is more than fast enough for me. The days of me killing deer with a recurve are long good and only good memories for me.
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by Boo » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:31 am

Tangle Eye wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:05 am
Back when I was shooting a longbow the guys at our indoor range used to kid me about using the chronograph just out of curiosity to see how fast my wood arrows were going. They suggested I needed a calendar instead. :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Funny enough, although I own 2 chronographs, I don't check speeds unless there's a reason. Testing a bow, swapping from limb forward riser to swept back just to see, different arrows all merit my time for setting up a chronograph but other than that, never. Don't get me wrong, I have zero opinion on guys that do, I just don't have any interest. Donno why but I just don't.
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by Boo » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:50 am

More food for thought. The Mission Sub 1 is selling well. Ever wonder why it only does 350 ft/sec?
I think SEW said it earlier this year. When arrow speeds exceed 350/360 ft/sec, our biggest limitation is the arrows. While bow technology has advanced to give us crazy speeds, arrow technology has not. Controlling the spine is our biggest issue, I think. A couple of companies are working on this but it's not quite here yet. So why the fudge do we get caught up in getting faster bows when we don't have arrows to meet the needs of the bows?
Hehehe, we cull arrows! That's funny! We should take those culled arrows and give them to someone shooting a slower bow! I think there's a conspiracy started by arrow manufactures to sell more arrows! :mrgreen:
Again, I started this thread for amusement with no real purpose in mind. I hope no one gets offended because that is not my intention and I apologize in advance if anyone does get offended.
If there are no dogs in heaven then I want to go where they went. Will Rogers
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Before you push send, keep in mind that the high road has no poop to step on.

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XB I GO
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by XB I GO » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:51 am

The smaller bows help kids like me be able to shoot independently. Speed doesn't matter too much to me since I can't cock any of the Excaliburs myself yet. I love the Axiom but I have to squeeze into the ground blind with it, it is big and heavy to get into the hunting spot with and I have to rest the front on sticks. The Matix is a little smaller and lighter. I can pack it to where I hunt easier, it fits in the blind easily and I can shoot it accurately without sticks if I want to. The next important thing to me is price. I got the Matrix for $679 delivered new. It happens to be the 380. I was not stuck on the speed, but for whatever reason it was cheaper than 330's and 350's by a hundred or more dollars and around $300 less than any of the Micros I found. I ended up with a crossbow that did the things I needed at the price I had. If I am by myself, I have one shot until my Dad gets there no matter what XB I am using.

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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by Carnivorous » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:56 am

i killed my best archery buck years ago with my slow Ibex 305 (more like 280fps)....

After that I had the upgrade bug based on a wants and not needs!

I've had just about all the models from the Vixen to the Micros and Matrix bows.

Am I any further ahead today as a bow hunter because of the bow I'm using? Nope but it was fun changing bows every few months.. Lol

I'm still happy with my current Excalibur Bulldog\Micro and will be attached to my hip this season when I'm not using my Scorpyd... :)
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by xcaliber » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:14 pm

I'm just going to go with YES! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by gerald strine » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:54 pm

Speed is not a bad thing , the thing about speed it helps in situations ware you have to make a quick yardage guess that bolt going 400 fps is more for giving in yardage mistakes than the old bows shooting 275 fps.
Of course the triad offs are known by all to get the speed .
I think any of the old timers hear that came from the vertical bow world recurve or compound bows of way back have had some not so great hits with slow bows and deer reacting to the shot so I like some speed but 350 is the fastest bow I have ever owned.
I still be-leave in keeping shots at game short range even with a fast bow.
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Re: Are we nuts?

Post by SEW » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:24 pm

Gentle, slower xbows, ie my Solution xbow , will shoot low tech arrows very accurately and high tech, very precise arrows not much better.
My M405s are much different. The arrow had better be very precise or accuracy goes downhill. The arrows are critical to the 405s.
The higher performance xbows place demands on arrows that few if any commonly used arrows can handle. Researcher that I am, I’m working with a number of arrow materials, designs, etc to come up with arrows that will achieve the best performance possible. Accuracy , trajectory and durability all come into play. We pretty well have accuracy down pretty well; however, this is often obtained with excessive fletching drag and foc which greatly decrease trajectory. Currently, I’m getting AL arrows to outperform carbon arrows, but for how long? It appears that AL deteriorates directly proportional to the # of shots, the stress of the launch, and the composition of the target. So, is the marginally greater accuracy worth it? I hope to find out. Then there are some new carbon arrow construction methods that might just put the carbon arrow on top accuracy-wise.
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