Are we nuts?

[Froghunter]

Not Yet!!!! Started with a Brown Deer Hide Vixen, but am launching 330 grain arrows out of it. This years deer season will tell me if I have a need for more speed!

Enjoy

Froghunter

[SEW]

Having deer hunted with vertical traditional bows for 61 years, I understand slow and understand close. Having used xbows for 35 years, I also understand slower xbows such as a PSE Foxfire 125# shooting appx 215’/sec with a 145g broadhead. And Hunter Mag Extreme 175# struggling to get 275’/sec, and the Strykeforce realistically getting its 385’/sec.

So having been on both sides and the middle, which do I want? As fast as practical. Faster - flatter. Flatter - more forgiving with range error.
We have more energy that is necessary so, extra speed isn’t for greater killing power, or greater penetration. But arrows drop due to the acceleration of gravity. Time is the only variable in that formula. Time is decreased by faster arrow speed. Flatter trajectory also provides a greater “ethical” range!!
In vertical archery, increased speed has consistently been a goal, even in traditional - that’s why I shoot a Palmer WT Classic instead of the much slower Black Widow I had (and the Palmer is lighter and has less hand shock). In cf rifles, faster/flatter trajectory has been a goal. In shotguns, faster has been a goal, especially turkey and slug loads. Cars, airplanes, boats, cell phones, computers, fighter bombers , ICBMs, etc. the same, faster is better. But, the xbow world has hit a limit? A flatter trajectory isn’t desired? Are xbow users a group who are trying to live out their youth simulating the old slow traditional bows?

Have we lost our minds by wanting to say “mine is slower than yours?” Or “ mine is smaller than yours?”

I like my 2 M405s and BD400. I told Peter today that I’d like a 300# Equinox that’ll shoot 430. I’m not convinced they’re working on it yet.
In the mean time, I’ll take the fastest 405 I can have. Realistically, we should be expressing maximum ethical range based on a # of factors but with normally 1 constant: time of flight, such as 0.5 sec or 0.6 sec in some circumstances and more or less in others. Regardless, faster will always end up farther. Max ethical range is my goal. No apologies!
I’m convinced that Excal has gone in the right direction: smaller, quieter, internal crank, etc. This is what most want; and if that’s what they want, it’s , in this case, what they need for their hunting goals.

But for me any my household, we’ll take the fastest M405 practical.

PS If and when I get another Excal, it’ll likely be a Gen 1 Micro 335.

[otisbrazwell]

ravens killing it here in rhode island .my friend sold 32 of them so far and some have shot deer @ 92 yrds . there is a small
gang that uses Excalibur im one and i get my nuts busted because the bd400 is not shooting advertised speed. but i would
not buy the raven its to complicated and ugly. you are right the need for speed has taken over the market.

i should add a lot of these guys that bought the raven never hunted with a crossbow and some are new to archery. store owner
left me a msg today saying that he had some more ravens come in to check out I'm all set with that. my next upgrade will be the charger
crank for the bulldog that i think wyvern has.

[grouse]

I agree that with increased speed you also get increased "ethical" killing range, and that is fine, you can't and (shouldn't) stop progress. Before long we'll have 500 fps bows and 100 yard shots will become common. The biggest regret I have about this is that bow hunting will lose some of its charm. I remember when muzzle loaders first came back to the hunting scene. They were long primitive "smoke poles" but they had charm and I admired their users. Today with the improvements in powder, slugs, design etc, they have just become single shot rifles with scopes. It's fine, but some of the appeal is gone.

I really don't resent anybody else using whatever (legal) equipment they choose, but it does change things.

[colouredchameleon]

This is my observation on the quest for Speed.

Quest for more Speed has had a direct relationship to an equal increased level of back pain.

Unfortunately it appears that the evolution of the human body as we age does not seem to have kept pace with evolution of recurve crossbow technology.

All I can say is thank God for the C2 crank or else even the lighter draw weight bows now would be out of the question .

[Boo]

I agree that with increased speed you also get increased "ethical" killing range, and that is fine, you can't and (shouldn't) stop progress. Before long we'll have 500 fps bows and 100 yard shots will become common. The biggest regret I have about this is that bow hunting will lose some of its charm. I remember when muzzle loaders first came back to the hunting scene. They were long primitive "smoke poles" but they had charm and I admired their users. Today with the improvements in powder, slugs, design etc, they have just become single shot rifles with scopes. It's fine, but some of the appeal is gone.

I really don't resent anybody else using whatever (legal) equipment they choose, but it does change things.

I couldn't have said it better with the exception that the real changes started with scopes.

[papabear1]

Having deer hunted with vertical traditional bows for 61 years, I understand slow and understand close. Having used xbows for 35 years, I also understand slower xbows such as a PSE Foxfire 125# shooting appx 215’/sec with a 145g broadhead. And Hunter Mag Extreme 175# struggling to get 275’/sec, and the Strykeforce realistically getting its 385’/sec.

So having been on both sides and the middle, which do I want? As fast as practical. Faster - flatter. Flatter - more forgiving with range error.
We have more energy that is necessary so, extra speed isn’t for greater killing power, or greater penetration. But arrows drop due to the acceleration of gravity. Time is the only variable in that formula. Time is decreased by faster arrow speed. Flatter trajectory also provides a greater “ethical” range!!
In vertical archery, increased speed has consistently been a goal, even in traditional - that’s why I shoot a Palmer WT Classic instead of the much slower Black Widow I had (and the Palmer is lighter and has less hand shock). In cf rifles, faster/flatter trajectory has been a goal. In shotguns, faster has been a goal, especially turkey and slug loads. Cars, airplanes, boats, cell phones, computers, fighter bombers , ICBMs, etc. the same, faster is better. But, the xbow world has hit a limit? A flatter trajectory isn’t desired? Are xbow users a group who are trying to live out their youth simulating the old slow traditional bows?

Have we lost our minds by wanting to say “mine is slower than yours?” Or “ mine is smaller than yours?”

I like my 2 M405s and BD400. I told Peter today that I’d like a 300# Equinox that’ll shoot 430. I’m not convinced they’re working on it yet.
In the mean time, I’ll take the fastest 405 I can have. Realistically, we should be expressing maximum ethical range based on a # of factors but with normally 1 constant: time of flight, such as 0.5 sec or 0.6 sec in some circumstances and more or less in others. Regardless, faster will always end up farther. Max ethical range is my goal. No apologies!
I’m convinced that Excal has gone in the right direction: smaller, quieter, internal crank, etc. This is what most want; and if that’s what they want, it’s , in this case, what they need for their hunting goals.

But for me any my household, we’ll take the fastest M405 practical.

Yeah, what he said.
I agree.
Dave

[Excalibur Marketing Dude]

Before long we'll have 500 fps bows and 100 yard shots will become common.

The big problem with this is anti-crossbow types can argue the fact crossbows are now too fast and more like a rifle than a bow and should be removed from archery seasons. This could destroy all the hard work that has been done over the years to obtain crossbow seasons in many states and provinces. If we lose crossbow seasons it will hurt everybody and you will have nowhere to use your 500fps crossbow. This progress could also stop any new seasons currently being negotiated in states that don't allow crossbows yet, so there are different ways to look at it.

Not fear mongering here but I've been around long enough and involved with many states opening crossbow seasons and its been a long tough road. I would hate to see all the hard work so many people put into allowing crossbows into archery seasons to be taken away.

[xcaliber]

Well said!

[Bcxbow]

Before long we'll have 500 fps bows and 100 yard shots will become common.

The big problem with this is anti-crossbow types can argue the fact crossbows are now too fast and more like a rifle than a bow and should be removed from archery seasons. This could destroy all the hard work that has been done over the years to obtain crossbow seasons in many states and provinces. If we lose crossbow seasons it will hurt everybody and you will have nowhere to use your 500fps crossbow. This progress could also stop any new seasons currently being negotiated in states that don't allow crossbows yet, so there are different ways to look at it.

Not fear mongering here but I've been around long enough and involved with many states opening crossbow seasons and its been a long tough road. I would hate to see all the hard work so many people put into allowing crossbows into archery seasons to be taken away.

Not to mention that I personally believe that we have already reached the threshold of being able to use fixed blade broadheads by approaching 400fps.

If bows get any faster it will (imo) limit broadhead use to mechanical heads only and tho I have nothing against mechanicals and use them periodically I do think that as the bows get faster longer shots will be taken using heads that require more energy to be effective.

My bd400 is currently shooting 369fps with a 423gr arrow and fixed blade broadhead. The only way I can use fixed blade heads even at this speed is to have perfect arrows with perfect head alignment. Who knows what will happen at higher speeds.

Just my 2 cents.

Billy

[SEW]

I agree that with increased speed you also get increased "ethical" killing range, and that is fine, you can't and (shouldn't) stop progress. Before long we'll have 500 fps bows and 100 yard shots will become common. The biggest regret I have about this is that bow hunting will lose some of its charm. I remember when muzzle loaders first came back to the hunting scene. They were long primitive "smoke poles" but they had charm and I admired their users. Today with the improvements in powder, slugs, design etc, they have just become single shot rifles with scopes. It's fine, but some of the appeal is gone.

I really don't resent anybody else using whatever (legal) equipment they choose, but it does change things.

Grouse, good post.
Years ago, when I was a “bow hunter only’” , I read an article by Dick Idol where he stated that he hunted a certain buck thru bow, then ML, then rifle season and finally got it with the rifle . I wondered just how good a bow hunter he really was. I found out that he was an avid archer, avid MLer shooter and an accomplished CF shooter and a passionate deer hunter. He was very good at it all.
I transitioned into being a deer hunter from being a bow hunter only (I didn’t use a gun of any kind for my first few decades of deer hunting). Then started using traditional BP. I think hunting with both ends of the spectrum: traditional vbow - crossbow, round ball BP - smokeless MLer, etc. I don’t live nor hunt where a cf can be used. However, I do use my recurve vbow still and my Ozark Mtn Arms 1857 Gremler Hawkin 50 cal RB/FFg GOEX propelled as well as my Excals and sabotless 40 cal smokeless powder MLer.

Some hunt with one extreme of each, others at the other extreme, and some(me) at both ends.

I like that freedom!

As Peter wrote, the crossbow superiority, if 500’/sec is reached and is usable, will be used against inclusion, but the hypocrisy of doing so!
The gap between traditional and compound vertical bows is MUCH greater than compound vertical bows and Xbows even @ 500’/sec , yet the compound vbow shooters don’t seem to care. The difference between roundball, black powder rifles and smokeless powder MLers shooting bore sized, bullets with BCs of 0.35+ and at 2800-3000’/sec+ with well sub MOA at 300 yds is much greater than compound v and x bows, again @ 500’/sec.
All the above is true! Logic should dictate that with the difference in xbow and compound vbow being less than between traditional/compound vbow and between traditional BP/smokeless MLing, that xbow inclusion should follow suit.

However, logic often isn’t used, emotions are.

[agingcrossbower]

I have with age found myself not going with the speed bows. It pains me to see the bow speed limits climbing higher and higher. To me ARCHery is just that ARCHery. Take away the arch and we have riflery or something like that. Trying to eliminate pins with speed is against what archery is all about. Mercy with the rangefinders that we have today I am not sure what the big deal with avoiding multiple pins is all really about.

[Back strap]

[VixChix]

I have enjoyed shooting faster xbows but have no great desire to own one.

I use my xbows for 3 things:
Competition
Hunting
Mentoring

Faster xbows shoot flatter however they also magnify any slight error, especially at longer distances. I'm more interested in accuracy and reliability than speed.

Consider that speed will drop off significantly after 35 yds so that speed rating can be misunderstood by newbies who assume that an arrow maintains velocity... the faster something goes the faster it decelerates. Excalibur used to have a graph illustrating this on their old website - i miss it.

My wide-limbed Vixen is my bow of choice for competition and it does just fine. Those wide limbs are beautiful stabilizers and also make me aware of possible canting. The long rail and limbs make for gentler cocking which becomes important by the time I'm on my 35th target.

Those qualities also make it a good bow for mentoring. Countless first-time shooters have shot my beautiful old Vixen.

For hunting I now carry my new Micro 315. (With deepest heartfelt thanks to the still-anonymous individual here who purchased the ticket in my name! ) It was originally a 335, however as we also intend to use it to introduce xbows to new shooters I swapped it for a 315 because those few lbs of draw weight can make all the difference between "can" and "can't".

Our family of wide limbed xbows are looking forward to seeing everyone again at BooFest!

[papabear1]

Well said!

x2