Super heavy arrow with expandable heads?

[toledo]

Im shooting a micro 355 with 170 grain NAP FOC heads and factory quill bolts. The last two does we shot, we hit leg bone and did not get a pass through. Made me wonder what would happen if they were big bucks. My max shot is 25 yards so speed isn't a major concern. Im hunting a small property and really like the fact that I don't have to worry about long tracking jobs with the FOCs huge cut so I don't want to change heads. This got me to thinking about increasing arrow weight. Just ordered some 15.5" spynal taps with 200 grain inserts for next season. Has anyone tried a similar combo with large expandable heads?

[Normous]

I am also a fan of the FOC and took several big bucks and a bear with my Micro 365 . Not once have I had a non pass thru.
Shot placementvis key the way I see it.
With a 200 gr front insert you KE will go up and increase pass thru ability.

After 8 years of FOC smiles and short recoveries I switched to the SWAT X MAG with a 4 blade 3 3/4" true cut compared to the actual FOC 2 3/4" two blade.

You will notice a increased drop from 20 to 25 yards when you pair the 170 gr FOC with a 200 gr insert from your Micro 356.

[toledo]

After 8 years of FOC smiles and short recoveries I switched to the SWAT X MAG with a 4 blade 3 3/4" true cut compared to the actual FOC 2 3/4" two blade.

What performance differences have you noticed? Any broken blades? Trailing distances the same or shorter?

[Normous]

The SWAT is made in the US and the blades are premium 440 SS..

In my first season I arrowed two hard maple trees after a pass thru and burried the blades up to and past the insert.

After cutting out the X MAG not one blade was bent ot broke.

My friend burried a SWAT up the fletching aftet a pass thru and had the same positive results.

Short recovery noticed just like the FOC.

[otisbrazwell]

with the swat xmag will it truly fly like a field point? I shot one into a rino foam target to confirm poi
it seemed close to field point @ 40yrds this is with micro 335. problem was it was hard getting out of target
ended up bending one of the forward blades . i bought extra blades and sent the tip to swat and they will change it good guys to deal with
i have shot swacks into foam pulled them out and use dental bands no problem.

[nchunterkw]

After 8 years of FOC smiles and short recoveries I switched to the SWAT X MAG with a 4 blade 3 3/4" true cut compared to the actual FOC 2 3/4" two blade.

What performance differences have you noticed? Any broken blades? Trailing distances the same or shorter?

I know it's counter intuitive, but trailing distance has everything to do with shot placement and not so much with cutting diameter. Through 2 lungs puts a deer down in under 90 yards 90% of the time with a average of 50yds. 500+ data points collected over many years on many different kinds of BHs. I use RamCats and track deer less than 50yds most of the time.

But I think you are on the right track with your arrow setup. I'm not sure you need a much heavier arrow, but a much STIFFER one should help alot on penetration. I bet the Quills are flexing a bit with your current setup.

[nchunterkw]

After 8 years of FOC smiles and short recoveries I switched to the SWAT X MAG with a 4 blade 3 3/4" true cut compared to the actual FOC 2 3/4" two blade.

What performance differences have you noticed? Any broken blades? Trailing distances the same or shorter?

I know it's counter intuitive, but trailing distance has everything to do with shot placement and not so much with cutting diameter. Through 2 lungs puts a deer down in under 90 yards 90% of the time with a average of 50yds. 500+ data points collected over many years on many different kinds of BHs. I use RamCats and track deer less than 50yds most of the time. You get this short recovery because the deer can't breath because the lungs are deflated and it loses oxygen to the brain. You are not depending on blood loss. Think about how long a deer can go and how much time passes and how much blood it has to lose to die when hit in only 1 lung, or the liver or something. They are bleeding like crazy, but still getting O2 to the brain, so they live on. Not matter what BH you use, you can't make a deer drop 3 or 4 pints of blood within the 7-10 seconds it takes it to run 50 yds, and that is what they need to lose to die from blood loss.

But I think you are on the right track with your arrow setup. I'm not sure you need a much heavier arrow, but a much STIFFER one should help alot on penetration. I bet the Quills are flexing a bit with your current setup.

Sorry, I tried to edit the post above but accidentally clicked on quote.

[gerald strine]

The tapps are a favorite on the forum I think they stiffer than the quills so should penetrate better not so sure you would need the 170 grain head with 200 grain inserts but as long as you have enough spine you should penetrate like crazy.

I shoot 2219 xx75 bolts with 175 grain heads with standard aluminum inserts with great results, it is a nice heavy combo.
The 2219 shafts are very stiff and durable and have always passed through with my 350 matrix though I always try to shoot behind the shoulder and avoid the heavy quartering towards me shots but some times I know things happen.

[racking up points]

In my opinion, large cut mechanicals have no business in a bow that shoots under 350fps with a hunting weight arrow. You can’t expect to get pass thrus at that speed regardless of shot placement.

That being said, I have used the FOC to harvest over 10 big game animals and I’ve always gotten pass thrus. I double band my FOCs from my Matrix 410 and I’ve had 3 kills where the entry hole showed that the blades didn’t deploy. On the exits, I had nice big cuts but the entry wound was arrow sized. All left great blood trails EXCEPT for my last one - quartering away shot at 45y and the shot placement was perfect. I could see the slash across the deer’s chest as she walked away. right? Got down to blood trail her, in fresh snow mind you, and just specks and dots of blood. What? Followed her walking tracks with very light blood spatter for 120y and she was at the end of it. You wouldn’t believe the size of the exit hole and yet, very little blood to speak of. So I don’t know that I follow the bigger hole = better blood trail philosophy anymore. That last experience has me scratching my head...wish I could post a picture of the gaping, bloodless wound.

[nchunterkw]

In my opinion, large cut mechanicals have no business in a bow that shoots under 350fps with a hunting weight arrow. You can’t expect to get pass thrus at that speed regardless of shot placement.

That being said, I have used the FOC to harvest over 10 big game animals and I’ve always gotten pass thrus. I double band my FOCs from my Matrix 410 and I’ve had 3 kills where the entry hole showed that the blades didn’t deploy. On the exits, I had nice big cuts but the entry wound was arrow sized. All left great blood trails EXCEPT for my last one - quartering away shot at 45y and the shot placement was perfect. I could see the slash across the deer’s chest as she walked away. right? Got down to blood trail her, in fresh snow mind you, and just specks and dots of blood. What? Followed her walking tracks with very light blood spatter for 120y and she was at the end of it. You wouldn’t believe the size of the exit hole and yet, very little blood to speak of. So I don’t know that I follow the bigger hole = better blood trail philosophy anymore. That last experience has me scratching my head...wish I could post a picture of the gaping, bloodless wound.

Derrick,
What did the lungs look like when you opened her up?

[otisbrazwell]

In my opinion, large cut mechanicals have no business in a bow that shoots under 350fps with a hunting weight arrow. You can’t expect to get pass thrus at that speed regardless of shot placement.

That being said, I have used the FOC to harvest over 10 big game animals and I’ve always gotten pass thrus. I double band my FOCs from my Matrix 410 and I’ve had 3 kills where the entry hole showed that the blades didn’t deploy. On the exits, I had nice big cuts but the entry wound was arrow sized. All left great blood trails EXCEPT for my last one - quartering away shot at 45y and the shot placement was perfect. I could see the slash across the deer’s chest as she walked away. right? Got down to blood trail her, in fresh snow mind you, and just specks and dots of blood. What? Followed her walking tracks with very light blood spatter for 120y and she was at the end of it. You wouldn’t believe the size of the exit hole and yet, very little blood to speak of. So I don’t know that I follow the bigger hole = better blood trail philosophy anymore. That last experience has me scratching my head...wish I could post a picture of the gaping, bloodless wound.

been thinking the same thing in fact im going to use the swats with my bd405. micro will get the slick tricks and gold tip arrows. im still hunting here and hope to end the season with the bd & swats

[nchunter]

You’re certainly on the right track, IMO, to use the heavier insert/broadhead.

However it’s not realistic to expect any arrow/broadhead combo to achieve a pass through on a leg bone! I dont think the most powerful Excalibur shooting a single-bevel fixed blade could achieve a pass through on a leg bone.

Archery equipment simply doesn’t have that many foot-pounds of energy. For that kind of performance you need a .308 — the kind sold by Remington, not Excalibur!

[longbow joe]

I will only use the large expandable with my 355 l agree that you need some horsepower to use them. My little vixen 2 has put the xact cut and cabellas lazer strike 2 expandable thru 11 deer all lung area All recovered sub 80 yards .Regardless of bow or broadhead just as in vertical archery the double lung is still the goal.l look at the rear edge of the deers front leg n go up 6 inches....dead deer.keep away from the leg bone.l think a 110 insert n the heavy heavy 170 grain head is enough

[nchunterkw]

This right here.

To absolutely center punch the lungs, my aiming point is:
horizontal: just behind the back edge of the front leg
vertical: dead middle between the belly and top of the back

I want to deflate those lungs as quick as I can. IMO far superior to the heart shot, and lots more room for error as the target is a bit larger.

[SEW]

In no way am I saying the following is what to do. These are just my experiences. I shoot a BD400 with ~425g arrows, an Aculeus 460 and a SWAT, the latter with 426g arrows. That’s with 100g points. I used to shoot FOCs but even with the 495g arrow wt on the BD400/M405 I frequently didn’t get passthrus even with chest hits. I think two sets of lung hits just had too much resistance. I’ve gone to various smaller expandibles - mostly various NAPs and Slick (100g), Xbow (150 & 175g) and Grizz Tricks (125g). Best blood trails, fastest put downs, quickest recoveries have come from these. The 1 1/4” Grizz Trick is especially impressive. I’m trying to decide between these 3 fixed broadheads for next year.
At the ATA this year I made my rounds of the various broadheads. Slick Tricks are what I’ll stay with. Somehow, the 4 blades seem to perform better for me than the 3 blade Wasps, which I used and use with verticals.