Arrow fish tailing pictures on page 2

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catclr
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Arrow fish tailing pictures on page 2

Post by catclr » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:45 am

Ok, question is, I have seen some videos of shots at live deer, and with the lighted nock, the arrow is showing it is fish tailing for first few yards after being shot. Now the fellow takes the deer, but to me there is a problem with his arrow. IMO, I don't think it should be fish tailing after leaving the rail.

What do you guys think?

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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by bigbowman » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:57 am

2” vanes? Too much FOC and smaller vanes cause fishtailing is what I was told.
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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by xcaliber » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:58 am

All arrows flex, sometimes if the spine is weaker than on other arrows it is more noticeable. All arrows do this as the spine is correcting, just not noticeable on some because they flex less, or correct faster. Yes, heavier FOC will increase the amount the arrow flexes at the shot.
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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by nchunterkw » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:08 am

I agree. Spine is probably a little weak in that setup. IMO the stiffer the better for a crossbow
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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by Tom » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:00 am

Really ........ the only thing that matters is ...... does the tip of the arrow hit what you are aiming at.

There are way too many variables to list that can contribute to an arrow fish tailing. I am old school shooting 2216, 100 gr head, my dads bow has 2216 and 125gr head. When shooting in daylight we always hit what we aimed at. Then we shot at dusk and the lighted nocks startled us as we could see the lighted nock spiral in flight. BUT THE ARROW HIT THE BULLSEYE at 30 and 40 yards.

We changed the dirrection that we were shooting and it was less noticeable. I believe that it was the wind causing the problem. As long as your fletching does it's job in steering the arrow tip onto the bullseye, don't worry about it.

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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by catclr » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:07 pm

Thanks for the replies so far.

Forgot to say the fletchings on this fellows arrows are 4" and original or original replacement arrows of Excalibur. This guy does not do or make any changes from what Excalibur says to use.

He shoots rage expandables now, used to shoot the X-Acts, but last year switched to rage.

I sent him a comment on his YT video, and he responded back, "yea, I saw that also, and the lighted nock is just along for the ride. lol"

As someone asked about where does the arrow hit, as in original post, he has killed the deer in the YT videos where I have seen his arrow fish tailing.

I thought maybe his arrow was hitting something going down the rail of his Excalibur crossbow.

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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by janesy » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:36 pm

catclr wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:07 pm
Thanks for the replies so far.

Forgot to say the fletchings on this fellows arrows are 4" and original or original replacement arrows of Excalibur. This guy does not do or make any changes from what Excalibur says to use.

He shoots rage expandables now, used to shoot the X-Acts, but last year switched to rage.

I sent him a comment on his YT video, and he responded back, "yea, I saw that also, and the lighted nock is just along for the ride. lol"

As someone asked about where does the arrow hit, as in original post, he has killed the deer in the YT videos where I have seen his arrow fish tailing.

I thought maybe his arrow was hitting something going down the rail of his Excalibur crossbow.

Catclr
All arrows do it to some extent. That is the priority for the fletching the instant the arrow clears the rail.
I more aggressive helical, fletching further back and a stiffer spine all help to reduce it
Theoretically, the faster the arrow settles down in flight, the more accurate it will be as well as carry more energy to the target. Slow motion videos often show the arrow flexing and then the fletchings starting to rotate the arrow in flight.
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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by vixenmaster » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:43 pm

2 things cause fish tailin, one is any contact the vanes have comin out of the rail. 2nd Not enuff FOC, the rear is heavy n the vanes are tryin to control the front. Some times the shaft is weak spined
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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by Tom » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:58 pm

janesy wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:36 pm
catclr wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:07 pm
Thanks for the replies so far.

Forgot to say the fletchings on this fellows arrows are 4" and original or original replacement arrows of Excalibur. This guy does not do or make any changes from what Excalibur says to use.

He shoots rage expandables now, used to shoot the X-Acts, but last year switched to rage.

I sent him a comment on his YT video, and he responded back, "yea, I saw that also, and the lighted nock is just along for the ride. lol"

As someone asked about where does the arrow hit, as in original post, he has killed the deer in the YT videos where I have seen his arrow fish tailing.

I thought maybe his arrow was hitting something going down the rail of his Excalibur crossbow.

Catclr
All arrows do it to some extent. That is the priority for the fletching the instant the arrow clears the rail.
I more aggressive helical, fletching further back and a stiffer spine all help to reduce it
Theoretically, the faster the arrow settles down in flight, the more accurate it will be as well as carry more energy to the target. Slow motion videos often show the arrow flexing and then the fletchings starting to rotate the arrow in flight.
Arrows have always and will always fishtail or spiral to some extent in flight. I use feathers for fletching because the are lighter and most importantly to me, have a better steering ability because they catch more air when the arrow starts to "fishtail".

In todays world, with lighted nocks, it has become more noticeable without slow motion cameras of how an arrow reacts in flight. The only time it hould concern anyone is when your arrow impacts areas that you ere not aiming at.

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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by nchunterkw » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:03 pm

An arrow that flies with minimal spiraling will have better penetration. If the spiral is too big, it will hit all over the place at different distances. 2 o'clock at one distance, 7 o'clock at another.

If it is weak spined and the fletching can't stabilize it quickly enough, the arrow will be flexed when it hits the target and that will reduce penetration as the BH will be pointing away from the direction of travel due to the flex.

None of this matter too much out of our bows if you are shooting broadside at a deer's ribs. But shoot at bigger game or hit a shoulder bone and you will wish you worried about things like this
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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by Tom » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:59 pm

nchunterkw wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:03 pm
An arrow that flies with minimal spiraling will have better penetration. If the spiral is too big, it will hit all over the place at different distances. 2 o'clock at one distance, 7 o'clock at another.

If it is weak spined and the fletching can't stabilize it quickly enough, the arrow will be flexed when it hits the target and that will reduce penetration as the BH will be pointing away from the direction of travel due to the flex.

None of this matter too much out of our bows if you are shooting broadside at a deer's ribs. But shoot at bigger game or hit a shoulder bone and you will wish you worried about things like this
The amount of reduced penetration from a fishtailing or sprialling arrow is so minimal that it should not even be thought of as a factor. If your arrow is so weakly spined that it flexes upon contact, your arrow is more apt to break then cause much of a reduction in penertration.

What matters is the tip of the arrow and where it strikes, not the nock and if it fishtails or spirals. IF your arrow is still accurate then fishtailling is not a problem. If you are not accurate, then the fishtailling is a problem and should be looked into.

About penertration, even on larger animals like a moose, a broadside shot will give you a complete pass through with a 150lb Excalibur even with a mechanical head. With a larger animal like a moose (or even a deer), with the heavest lb crossbow (normal arrows) you hit the shoulder there will be a problem with penertration. Heavy bone structure will stop arrows.

Remember that all arrows will fishtail or spiral to some extent. Even if your arrow was a solid aluminum or steel shaft with a proper FOC weight there will be some extent of fishtail in flight.

Remember the tip of your arrow is 14-18" off the rail in free air while the back of the arrow is still being forced forward by the string. Because of this, the back end will try to pass the front (normal physics). Plus there is the fact that during the process of the shot, the bow probably was moved slightly during the miniscule time the arrow is being propelled by the string.

Any of these or other factors can cause fishtailling, again just worry if your not accurate.

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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by catclr » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:04 pm

Tom wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:59 pm
nchunterkw wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:03 pm
An arrow that flies with minimal spiraling will have better penetration. If the spiral is too big, it will hit all over the place at different distances. 2 o'clock at one distance, 7 o'clock at another.

If it is weak spined and the fletching can't stabilize it quickly enough, the arrow will be flexed when it hits the target and that will reduce penetration as the BH will be pointing away from the direction of travel due to the flex.

None of this matter too much out of our bows if you are shooting broadside at a deer's ribs. But shoot at bigger game or hit a shoulder bone and you will wish you worried about things like this
The amount of reduced penetration from a fishtailing or sprialling arrow is so minimal that it should not even be thought of as a factor. If your arrow is so weakly spined that it flexes upon contact, your arrow is more apt to break then cause much of a reduction in penertration.

What matters is the tip of the arrow and where it strikes, not the nock and if it fishtails or spirals. IF your arrow is still accurate then fishtailling is not a problem. If you are not accurate, then the fishtailling is a problem and should be looked into.

About penertration, even on larger animals like a moose, a broadside shot will give you a complete pass through with a 150lb Excalibur even with a mechanical head. With a larger animal like a moose (or even a deer), with the heavest lb crossbow (normal arrows) you hit the shoulder there will be a problem with penertration. Heavy bone structure will stop arrows.

Remember that all arrows will fishtail or spiral to some extent. Even if your arrow was a solid aluminum or steel shaft with a proper FOC weight there will be some extent of fishtail in flight.

Remember the tip of your arrow is 14-18" off the rail in free air while the back of the arrow is still being forced forward by the string. Because of this, the back end will try to pass the front (normal physics). Plus there is the fact that during the process of the shot, the bow probably was moved slightly during the miniscule time the arrow is being propelled by the string.

Any of these or other factors can cause fishtailling, again just worry if your not accurate.

Tom
You state above "remember the tip of your arrow is 14-18" off the rail in free air", how long of arrows are you shooting? Mine is half of the less number in free air.
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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by Tom » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:09 pm


You state above "remember the tip of your arrow is 14-18" off the rail in free air", how long of arrows are you shooting? Mine is half of the less number in free air.
I used the 14-18" as a ball park as arrow sizes vari. I did check my bow ( Relayer) and my dad's (exomag) and the distance from the end of the rail and the string is 3 inches or less. Therefore, my bow shoots 20-21" arrows, meaning the tip of the arrow is 17-18" off the rail, "in free air" before the string stops pushing the arrow. If you are shooting 18" arrows, your arrow tip is approximately 15" off the rail in free air before the string stops propelling the arrow.

Now my term of "in free air" refers to not being supported by a solid device like the rail.

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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by sproulman » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:16 am

From member here with less experience on crossbows ...
When I got my first set of arrows fir my micro 335
goldtip they did it ..Terrible....
Think they were .005 not sure ...
You could see it ....
Went to zombies .003 no problem....
It was spine....
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Re: Arrow fish tailing

Post by nchunterkw » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:10 am

We can just agree to disagree. IMO if your arrow noticeably fishtails or spirals you have arrow issues to fix. Especially if it's with a field point or mech head.
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