Arrow fish tailing pictures on page 2

[Bcxbow]

We can just agree to disagree. IMO if your arrow noticeably fishtails or spirals you have arrow issues to fix. Especially if it's with a field point or mech head.

X2. If the tail isn’t following the point accuracy and penetration is lost.

[Tom]

We can just agree to disagree. IMO if your arrow noticeably fishtails or spirals you have arrow issues to fix. Especially if it's with a field point or mech head.

I agree that if your arrow is fishtailling or spiralling that there is a problem. BUT WHAT I SAID WAS THAT THERE ARE WAY TO MANY VARIABLES THAT CAN CAUSE THIS TO HAPPEN. It is not as simple as your arrow. If your arrow is accurate and hitting what you are shooting at, then I wouldn't worry about it.

Wind is a large variable. There is crosswinds, gusting winds which cause differences in pressure against the arrow, which can cause differences in flight. Remember it is the back end of the arrow that steers the arrow. If an outside variable disturbs the flight path, your fletching steers the arrow which means there will be fishtailling or spiralling.

Some of the other factors that can cause this are:
...... tips or heads off center axis
...... moving during shot
...... incorrect FOC
...... incorrect arrow spine
...... bad fletching
...... WIND pressure on arrow or head

Remember that there is NEVER a perfect arrow flight because of all the variables. It is always good to try and achieve the best flight from the arrow you can (I always do) but how much money do you want to spend chasing the issue when you may never solve the problem. It might be 1 of the variables or it might be a combination of them, some you have no control over. This is why I have said ........ If you are accurate and hitting what you want, I wouldn't worry about it.

And the statement that it will cause a loss of penitration is a non factor. The amount of penitration lost is or will be so miniscule that there is nothing to worry about. The air pressure outside (high or low pressure, high humidity or low humidity) will probably effect arrow penitration more the fishtailling. An 150lb excalibur bow has "excess" power for a complete pass though and most everybody are shooting bows with a lot more power or KE then a 150lb bow.

Tom

[nchunterkw]

I was gonna just let this die, but I can't...........

Of your 6 factors, 5 or them can and should be controlled by the arrow builder. The 6th - WIND, can and should be controlled during sight in. Whether you do that in doors, or on a calm day. This is the only 1 that "cannot" be controlled in the field (but you can choose to not fire the weapon if you think it's too windy). My point is that you should control these variables and verify that to the best of your ability, your arrows fly "perfectly" during your prep. Then in the field 5/6 factors are now a non-factor.

Your statements can be taken by less experienced people that as long as I hit where I'm aiming no matter how bad the flight, I'm good to go. This is simply not true. In a 2" bull at 20 yds does not necessarily equal in a 6" bull at 40yds with crappy arrow flight . And as the arrow speed goes up, the criticality of "perfect" arrows is amplified.....by a lot.

You are also using overarching generalizations that as long as you have a 150lb Excal and shoot something broadside that you will have a pass through. Again, just not true.

My MO is to do all I can to make my arrows fly perfectly, use fixed BHs that do not need to move to cut, and to make my arrows heavy enough and tough to pass through deer, even when things do not go perfectly...like you do hit a shoulder, or the deer "jumps the string" or anything else that can - and does happen in the real world of hunting. That way I have the confidence that my equipment will do the job even under less than ideal circumstances.

Good luck you you this season.

[jdmax]

At the speeds of the average crossbow, if the arrow is correcting quick enough, fishtailing should not be noticable. If it is noticable, there is a spine issue. I don't care where it hits. I understand it happens, but having the correct spine will correct flight before we can see it.
JDMAX

[xcaliber]

And one other factor that is prevalent with crossbows and not with vertical bows is squaring the back of the arrows. If the flat nock is not squared the arrow leaves the string at an angle, this starts the erratic behavior more than any other factor.

[Boo]

In addition, any amount of tiller difference can cause erratic flight. BUT, it also may be an optical illusion. I switched to using all vanes the same colour because the optical illusion was making me crazy.
But Tom is right, there are a whole lot of variables that can cause "fishtailing". Fishtailing to me is a left to right wag of the tail end of an arrow and when I say erratic flight I mean anything but dead straight. I think it's best to take a video in slow motion to see what is happening so you can determine what route to take. But as was mentioned, does it matter if it hits exactly where you aim? if it does, it's likely an optical illusion or it's not as bad as it seems.

[Carnivorous]

Sounds like Archers Paradox to me! Lol

[Tom]

I was gonna just let this die, but I can't...........

Of your 6 factors, 5 or them can and should be controlled by the arrow builder. The 6th - WIND, can and should be controlled during sight in. Whether you do that in doors, or on a calm day. This is the only 1 that "cannot" be controlled in the field (but you can choose to not fire the weapon if you think it's too windy). My point is that you should control these variables and verify that to the best of your ability, your arrows fly "perfectly" during your prep. Then in the field 5/6 factors are now a non-factor.

Your statements can be taken by less experienced people that as long as I hit where I'm aiming no matter how bad the flight, I'm good to go. This is simply not true. In a 2" bull at 20 yds does not necessarily equal in a 6" bull at 40yds with crappy arrow flight . And as the arrow speed goes up, the criticality of "perfect" arrows is amplified.....by a lot.

You are also using overarching generalizations that as long as you have a 150lb Excal and shoot something broadside that you will have a pass through. Again, just not true.

My MO is to do all I can to make my arrows fly perfectly, use fixed BHs that do not need to move to cut, and to make my arrows heavy enough and tough to pass through deer, even when things do not go perfectly...like you do hit a shoulder, or the deer "jumps the string" or anything else that can - and does happen in the real world of hunting. That way I have the confidence that my equipment will do the job even under less than ideal circumstances.

Good luck you you this season.

I am not an inexperienced crossbow shooter. I have been shooting crossbows before Excalibur started making bows, over 40 years. I have seen many different types of bows come and go, I have also experienced many different things in the crossbow world. I have been a member of this forum from the begining, actually was a member of the frum before it came to this "phpbb" format.

I frequent the forum to help new or less experienced crossbow users. I don't post very much anymore, but I will post when I see incorrect advice or on safety issues.

On the issue of loss of penitration. A 150lb excalibur crossbow will give you a complete pass through on a deer. If your shooting from a stand, most of the arrow will be buried into the ground or from level ground your arrow might travel (depends on vegitation) many feet past the deer. If your arrow loses even 10% (I doubt it would be that much) penitration it would just mean it would be easier to find your arrow.

Your statement of saying that my statement that if you shoot a 150lb crossbow and a broadside shot will get a passthrough is not true, how ignorant are you in your statements. I have always said shot placement is most important. You make the statement that heavier arrows will make a hit in the shoulder an OK hit. That is totally NOT true a deers shoulder will stop an arrow.

Your comment of just using fixed heads and heavier arrows is totally misleading to less experienced users. There are pros and cons to fixed heads. One con, and a very serious one towards accuracy is that unless you use a smaller dia head, the wind WILL effect your arrow flight and accuracy (maybe what causing you a bad hit in the shoulder). I don't care how heavy your arrow is, a shoulder will stop the arrow, shot placement is most important, meaning accuracy. Remember the heavier your arrow means the slower your speed and a heavier arrow slows down more in flight then a lighter arrow. Meaning the KE of a heavier arrow disapates faster in flight then a lighter arrow (speed as well as weight are factors in KE).

The orginal poster was commenting on a shot outdoors on a deer, meaning it was not a controlled situation and was possibly effected by wind.

My question to you is ..... why do you use fletching on arrows?

To me it is to steer the arrow and help it fly true and accurate. If the fletching is dong it's job, the steering will cause some form of fishtailling or spiralling. That is the nature of how fletching works.

My statements or advice to not worry about fishtailling of an arrow if it is still accurate still stands. If it is still accurate, the fshtailling that you see (usually only noticed with a lighted nock) is so minor that it won't effect accuracy. If it effects accuracy, then yes you need to address the problem.

If "your" arrow flies 100% true right off the rail, then you are able to shoot arrows without fletching ...... correct.

Again ..... if your fletching is doing any work at all, there will be some extent of fishtailling, but it is not usually seen.

[catclr]

Thanks for more replies. I know wind could be a factor, but in these pictures, wind not the problem. I have video of me shooting my M355, and I have never saw anything like this on my shots. THESE PICTURES ARE NOT MINE. FROM VIDEO ON YT.

Here are two pictures that show two different movements of the arrow, I originally posted about------

Right out of bow

About 8 yds. out

[Boo]

Is that a left/right movement?

[catclr]

Is that a left/right movement?

I wanted to post a video but could not. So took pictures of the two movements. It does look that way on bottom picture to me also Don. Top looks like it was up and down.

[Boo]

Is that a left/right movement?

I wanted to post a video but could not. So took pictures of the two movements. It does look that way on bottom picture to me also Don. Top looks like it was up and down.

A left/right movement would tell me to check my tiller.

[nchunterkw]

I am not an inexperienced crossbow shooter. I have been shooting crossbows before Excalibur started making bows, over 40 years. I have seen many different types of bows come and go, I have also experienced many different things in the crossbow world. I have been a member of this forum from the begining, actually was a member of the frum before it came to this "phpbb" format.

I frequent the forum to help new or less experienced crossbow users. I don't post very much anymore, but I will post when I see incorrect advice or on safety issues.

On the issue of loss of penitration. A 150lb excalibur crossbow will give you a complete pass through on a deer. If your shooting from a stand, most of the arrow will be buried into the ground or from level ground your arrow might travel (depends on vegitation) many feet past the deer. If your arrow loses even 10% (I doubt it would be that much) penitration it would just mean it would be easier to find your arrow.

Your statement of saying that my statement that if you shoot a 150lb crossbow and a broadside shot will get a passthrough is not true, how ignorant are you in your statements. I have always said shot placement is most important. You make the statement that heavier arrows will make a hit in the shoulder an OK hit. That is totally NOT true a deers shoulder will stop an arrow.

Your comment of just using fixed heads and heavier arrows is totally misleading to less experienced users. There are pros and cons to fixed heads. One con, and a very serious one towards accuracy is that unless you use a smaller dia head, the wind WILL effect your arrow flight and accuracy (maybe what causing you a bad hit in the shoulder). I don't care how heavy your arrow is, a shoulder will stop the arrow, shot placement is most important, meaning accuracy. Remember the heavier your arrow means the slower your speed and a heavier arrow slows down more in flight then a lighter arrow. Meaning the KE of a heavier arrow disapates faster in flight then a lighter arrow (speed as well as weight are factors in KE).

The orginal poster was commenting on a shot outdoors on a deer, meaning it was not a controlled situation and was possibly effected by wind.

My question to you is ..... why do you use fletching on arrows?

To me it is to steer the arrow and help it fly true and accurate. If the fletching is dong it's job, the steering will cause some form of fishtailling or spiralling. That is the nature of how fletching works.

My statements or advice to not worry about fishtailling of an arrow if it is still accurate still stands. If it is still accurate, the fshtailling that you see (usually only noticed with a lighted nock) is so minor that it won't effect accuracy. If it effects accuracy, then yes you need to address the problem.

If "your" arrow flies 100% true right off the rail, then you are able to shoot arrows without fletching ...... correct.

Again ..... if your fletching is doing any work at all, there will be some extent of fishtailling, but it is not usually seen.

I never said a hit in the shoulder is what I am trying to do , nor is it OK. I said I use heavy arrows so in case something bad happens I still have a reasonable chance of making a fatal hit. And yes, it has happened, and yes my heavy fixed blade arrows still got a pass through even when hitting one shoulder. So once again you are making generalized statements about things as facts.

And you really need to check your physics a bit....heavy arrows do not slow down more in speed than lighter ones. A lighter projectile sheds a higher percentage of it's speed than a heavier one at a given distance. Read this link below . It's a pretty straightforward and simple article. If you want to understand more, research Dr Ed Ashby's stuff on arrow penetration. Or do some research on what kind of setup you need to kill a big hog (one with a "shield") with an arrow.

http://archeryreport.com/2011/01/heavy-vs-light-arrows-speed-power/

Here is a quote from that article

"At typical archery distances, the lighter arrow will almost always maintain a higher speed than the heavier arrow. Even though the lighter arrow is slowing down faster, it started out much faster and the heavier arrow is also slowing down. Because the heavier arrow is decelerating at a slower rate, it will maintain a higher percentage of it’s original speed than the faster arrow. Also remember that the heavier arrow has more kinetic energy and momentum than the lighter arrow at launch already. This gap only grows larger as the arrows progress downrange".


As for your fletching question, yes, I use fletching to control my BH flight. But I also test arrows by shooting them without fletching at short distances to match dynamic spine so when I build them I get really good arrows that don't fishtail. As for your accusations about my accuracy, I agree that wind can affect BH flight...but again I shoot heavy arrows that are much less affected by wind because I do shoot fixed heads.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by disagreeing with you. Again, best of luck this season.

[Boo]

Gentlemen, please take the high road.

[paulaboutform]

As a segway, I actually did a heavy/light arrow test 3 or 4 years ago. I think one arrow was 387gr and the other was 500gr.....from a Matrix 380. The lighter arrow shot higher than the heavy arrow all the way out to 60 yards with the distance of gap between the two grew smaller at the further distances. At 60 yards both arrows hit the same elevation horrizantaly. Beyond 60 yards, the heavy arrow began shooting higher than the light arrow.

Paul