cheek piece and trigger question

Crossbow Hunting

Moderators: Bill T, Excalibur Marketing Dude

ironeyes
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:34 pm

cheek piece and trigger question

Post by ironeyes » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:13 am

Has anyone seen or heard of a cheek piece in Serenity Camo for the 308? I wanted to get one for my daughters xbow but I havent been able to find one in that pattern, just black.

Also, is the TT or ACP easier on the string serving? My matrix seperates the serving in less than 100 shots. Doesnt fray anything, just spreads the wrap on the left side primarily. Would the upgrade fix this?

User avatar
nchunterkw
Posts: 2364
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Contact:

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by nchunterkw » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:52 am

I used a vinyl camo made by GunSkins (www.gunskins.com) on my Micro Nightmare. Put it on the rail, the quiver hood and the cheek piece. Was easy to do and is very durable. Not sure if they have Serenity, but they have a ton of patterns.

Try polishing your trigger latches first, unless you want to upgrade to a lighter (IMO better) trigger. I needed to polish my TT triggers, but my ACP seems to be OK out of the box. About the same as a standard trigger from Excal. Personally, for the $$, I don't know why TT or Excal does not polish their latches to a mirror finish. Very common knowledge that any tiny imperfection causes undue serving wear, and as the limb poundage goes up and the string angle gets sharper the problem only gets worse. Not an expensive step to take to eliminate this issue completely, IMO.
But all that said, if your latches are not the issue, it's probably the serving on the string. It takes some doing to get a serving on a string that will last in these bows at these weights. If what you say is true, and the string fibers underneath have not been damaged, get those string reserved by someone who knows how to reserve a crossbow string and it using Angel Majesty 0.036" serving material. Serving a string puts a lot of compression on it, and in serving it a second time, many times the second serving will go one much tighter.
Keith
"I can explain it to you...but I can't understand it for you"

Micro, Vortex
RamCat, Slick Trick
BE Zombie, TF Feathers, Trinity Strings
deerboyarchery.wixsite.com/trinitystrings
[email protected]
<{{{><

User avatar
janesy
Posts: 2593
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:20 pm
Location: Beavertown. Ont

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by janesy » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:33 am

ironeyes wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:13 am
Has anyone seen or heard of a cheek piece in Serenity Camo for the 308? I wanted to get one for my daughters xbow but I havent been able to find one in that pattern, just black.

Also, is the TT or ACP easier on the string serving? My matrix seperates the serving in less than 100 shots. Doesnt fray anything, just spreads the wrap on the left side primarily. Would the upgrade fix this?
Only black cheek pieces now. Never seen a serenity anyway.

In my experiences, TT is the hardest on serving separation. ACP is pretty good. I'm also drawing considerably more poundage on my pitbull, 12-20 shots max before separation. So far ACP has reduced that significantly. It is stock, never polished.
TT was polished by the PRO, and still hard on serving
Micro-Hybrid-bulldog "PitBull370"
MOBU Micro BD345 "Greener"
Xtra Micro BD310 "Small-Fry"
Micro Axe MOBU.

Every little sound in the bush sounds like footsteps... Until you hear footsteps!

ironeyes
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by ironeyes » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:44 am

Thank you for the replies

User avatar
Boo
Posts: 12192
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:04 pm
Location: Newtonville, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by Boo » Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:06 pm

nchunterkw wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:52 am
If what you say is true, and the string fibers underneath have not been damaged, get those string reserved by someone who knows how to reserve a crossbow string and it using Angel Majesty 0.036" serving material. Serving a string puts a lot of compression on it, and in serving it a second time, many times the second serving will go one much tighter.
What Keith says will help.
Often, what happens is that a string is put on without enough twists. When putting on a new endless loop string you have to install it with a high brace height by twisting the string IN THE CORRECT DIRECTION, in anticipation of string creep. You cannot expect good things to happen if you install a new endless loop string at the correct brace height because it will not have enough twists to tighten up the serving. Twisting the string in the proper direction will turn the serving in a direction that will cause the tightening of the center serving combating serving separation.
One thing you can do for yourself is to make a cheap and easy to make jig that puts tension on a string and over a few days you can elongate the string so that you can have a string with a shortened break in time. If you go to the second page of my website, theres a design you can use that will cost you $20 or less. Put on good tension and twists, rub wax in and get the string warm. Over a few days, you'll get a more acceptable length.
If there are no dogs in heaven then I want to go where they went. Will Rogers
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Truth is not what you want it to be, it is what it is and you must bend to its power or live a lie. Miyamoto Musashi
Boocustomstrings.com

ironeyes
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by ironeyes » Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:49 pm

Thank you for the info Boo. Im going to polish the latches and see if that helps and maybe look to pick up a TT or ACP. This was on a flemish string but I assume the same principles apply. My season doesnt end till February so It will be a bit before I break it down.

User avatar
Boo
Posts: 12192
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:04 pm
Location: Newtonville, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by Boo » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:31 pm

ironeyes wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:13 am
My matrix seperates the serving in less than 100 shots. Doesnt fray anything, just spreads the wrap on the left side primarily.
Although polishing your latches will improve serving wear, you do not have a serving wear issue.
If there are no dogs in heaven then I want to go where they went. Will Rogers
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Truth is not what you want it to be, it is what it is and you must bend to its power or live a lie. Miyamoto Musashi
Boocustomstrings.com

User avatar
nchunterkw
Posts: 2364
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Contact:

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by nchunterkw » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:47 pm

Boo wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:31 pm
ironeyes wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:13 am
My matrix seperates the serving in less than 100 shots. Doesnt fray anything, just spreads the wrap on the left side primarily.
Although polishing your latches will improve serving wear, you do not have a serving wear issue.
Slight tiller issue? Would that separate a serving on one side only? Seems like it would cause more pressure on one latch.
Keith
"I can explain it to you...but I can't understand it for you"

Micro, Vortex
RamCat, Slick Trick
BE Zombie, TF Feathers, Trinity Strings
deerboyarchery.wixsite.com/trinitystrings
[email protected]
<{{{><

User avatar
Boo
Posts: 12192
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:04 pm
Location: Newtonville, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by Boo » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:01 pm

nchunterkw wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:47 pm
Boo wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:31 pm
ironeyes wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:13 am
My matrix seperates the serving in less than 100 shots. Doesnt fray anything, just spreads the wrap on the left side primarily.
Although polishing your latches will improve serving wear, you do not have a serving wear issue.
Slight tiller issue? Would that separate a serving on one side only? Seems like it would cause more pressure on one latch.
Keith, unless the serving is really sloppy, one side will separate first. The string is held by the limbs at both ends. So I think of that like twisting a string on one side or both. I also know that one latch fingers do not have the same profile and I think the left side is more narrow at the contact surface. So I believe what I said is true and that the left latch finger wouldn't cause the separation if the 2 were identical.
On an endless loop string, you can twist it 5 turns and twist a Flemish string the same and you'll get more shortening effect in the Flemish string. You know how important twists are to a serving right? So given what I said about an endless loop string being twisted, does it make more sense?
To explain, when you twist a Flemish string, the twist works to shorten only the string between the serving and the "braided" part. When you twist an endless loop string, it acts on the part between the center serving and the loop serving.
If there are no dogs in heaven then I want to go where they went. Will Rogers
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Truth is not what you want it to be, it is what it is and you must bend to its power or live a lie. Miyamoto Musashi
Boocustomstrings.com

User avatar
janesy
Posts: 2593
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:20 pm
Location: Beavertown. Ont

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by janesy » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:23 pm

All of mine have always separated the left side first, regardless of which bow.

I currently have the Culprit TT in the AXE and it's not separating as quickly. But I haven't shot it all that much in comparison.
Micro-Hybrid-bulldog "PitBull370"
MOBU Micro BD345 "Greener"
Xtra Micro BD310 "Small-Fry"
Micro Axe MOBU.

Every little sound in the bush sounds like footsteps... Until you hear footsteps!

User avatar
nchunterkw
Posts: 2364
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Contact:

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by nchunterkw » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:38 am

Boo wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:01 pm
nchunterkw wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:47 pm
Boo wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:31 pm

Although polishing your latches will improve serving wear, you do not have a serving wear issue.
Slight tiller issue? Would that separate a serving on one side only? Seems like it would cause more pressure on one latch.
Keith, unless the serving is really sloppy, one side will separate first. The string is held by the limbs at both ends. So I think of that like twisting a string on one side or both. I also know that one latch fingers do not have the same profile and I think the left side is more narrow at the contact surface. So I believe what I said is true and that the left latch finger wouldn't cause the separation if the 2 were identical.
On an endless loop string, you can twist it 5 turns and twist a Flemish string the same and you'll get more shortening effect in the Flemish string. You know how important twists are to a serving right? So given what I said about an endless loop string being twisted, does it make more sense?
To explain, when you twist a Flemish string, the twist works to shorten only the string between the serving and the "braided" part. When you twist an endless loop string, it acts on the part between the center serving and the loop serving.
Boo,
I understand what you are saying, but in each case (EL or FLemish), the part of the string that is separated for the serving to pass through to start should twist some and help tighten the serving. More so with an EL for sure.
BUT now that you said the latches are not manufactured to be mirror images of each other, I think that explains it all. the smaller latch will have much higher pressure on the string. I think we are talking about maybe a 1/16" square contact area for each latch, so even a small difference would increase the PSI on the string at that point by a lot.
Keith
"I can explain it to you...but I can't understand it for you"

Micro, Vortex
RamCat, Slick Trick
BE Zombie, TF Feathers, Trinity Strings
deerboyarchery.wixsite.com/trinitystrings
[email protected]
<{{{><

User avatar
Boo
Posts: 12192
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:04 pm
Location: Newtonville, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by Boo » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:16 am

Keith, its quite the opposite. Try it yourself. Danny was bemoaning that endless loop strings did not respond to twisting and I pointed my explanation to him. The length that twists is much shorter on a Flemish string. Think of what would happen if you served all but a few inches on an EL. All the twist would act on the few inches and it would respond sooner to twists. Ever notice that Micro strings respond to twists faster and more so than Exo strings? Less response to twisting equals less twisting action on the center serving.
Different or not, if the serving is tight and long enough, you'll get wear before separation.
If there are no dogs in heaven then I want to go where they went. Will Rogers
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Truth is not what you want it to be, it is what it is and you must bend to its power or live a lie. Miyamoto Musashi
Boocustomstrings.com

User avatar
nchunterkw
Posts: 2364
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Contact:

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by nchunterkw » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:57 pm

OK WAAAY OT,
Boo,
What you are describing is the helical length equation.

L = (H^2 + C^2)^0.5 (square root of H squared plus C squared), where

L = straight length of section
H = length of twisted section
C = 2* Pi* R, where
R = the radius about which the bundles rotate (think you can basically use the diameter of a bundle as a good approximation, say 0.1")

For illustration I will talk about only putting in 1 twist.

So on a string where the twisted section measures 12" (1 twist), the equivalent straight length is
L = (12^2 + (2*3.14*0.1)^2)^0.5
L = 12.01" so 1 twist uses up 0.01".

But on a shorter string where the twisted section measures 4" (1 twist), the equivalent straight length is
L = (4^2 + (2*3.14*0.1)^2)^0.5
L = 4.04" so 1 twist uses up 0.04".

So this easily explains why a Micro Flemish string responds quicker than an Exo Flemish

With an EL it would be much harder to calculate as the R about which each individual strand rotates will be different in almost each case. Some strands won't have much "R" and others will have more. But I think it's clear that it would take more twists to shorten an EL.


Gotta love MATH!!
Keith
"I can explain it to you...but I can't understand it for you"

Micro, Vortex
RamCat, Slick Trick
BE Zombie, TF Feathers, Trinity Strings
deerboyarchery.wixsite.com/trinitystrings
[email protected]
<{{{><

User avatar
janesy
Posts: 2593
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:20 pm
Location: Beavertown. Ont

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by janesy » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:52 pm

That was the sound of my brain imploding if anyone was wondering.
Micro-Hybrid-bulldog "PitBull370"
MOBU Micro BD345 "Greener"
Xtra Micro BD310 "Small-Fry"
Micro Axe MOBU.

Every little sound in the bush sounds like footsteps... Until you hear footsteps!

User avatar
Bcxbow
Posts: 913
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:44 am
Location: North Georgia

Re: cheek piece and trigger question

Post by Bcxbow » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:58 pm

janesy wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:52 pm
That was the sound of my brain imploding if anyone was wondering.
I stopped reading it after L = (H^2 +

:wtf: :crazy: :lol:
Billy

BD400
M380 Blackout Cerakote Riser & Rail (Midnight)
Trinity Strings (nchunterkw)
Boo Strings

Post Reply