O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

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AJ01
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by AJ01 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:07 pm

IronNoggin wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:57 pm
The author is a known "sensationalist" working for CNN.
In her own words, her main aspiration is to "follow my dream of changing the world, one word at a time."

As a retired biologist, I suggest she is out to lunch regarding the causal agent for the lead poisoning in these birds.

But hey, it sells...

Nog
Here! Here!!! Excellent observation my friend. :thumbup: :eusa-clap: :thumbup:

Nog,
I have a question.... (dripping with blatant sarcasm) so all liberals will moan and gasp in horror). :lol:
I've been eating deer meat for more than 55 years, I'm 60 plus. With most of it being harvested by some type of lead projectile. How come we, as hunters don't get lead poisoning from eating the "tainted" meat??? :think:
And why don't coyotes get lead poisoning this way, rather than by the occasional .223 round I send them to remind them how much I like them!! :wtf:
They too are "carrion feeders", and Lord knows they eat a ton of deer.
I'd like to see the control group used to determine this set of "facts" as published. Studies sometimes might get a little 'skewed" because of a certain academic slant depending on who the "overseeing" professor is or was. :eusa-shhh:
Just MHO :mrgreen:
AJ
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grouse
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by grouse » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:23 am

The questions some of the previous posters have raised are completely valid, and I've wondered about them myself. In fairness though, the studies and reports were about why bald eagle are becoming sick and dying and not about why other species are or are not, being similarly effected. I started out being highly suspicious of this subject, but I really don't think that various universities and state agencies met and hatched a conspiracy to trick the public into thinking eagles are being killed by hunters.

Anyway, for some reason (unknown to me) this seems to be deteriorating into a political discussion which is not appropriate for this forum and will not accomplish anything. This was never my intention but I apologize for introducing this subject and will try to stay away from areas that people might try to politicize (If there is a way to do that).
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by janesy » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:40 am

grouse wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:23 am

Anyway, for some reason (unknown to me) this seems to be deteriorating into a political discussion which is not appropriate for this forum and will not accomplish anything. This was never my intention but I apologize for introducing this subject and will try to stay away from areas that people might try to politicize (If there is a way to do that).
Don't stay away. Its a good topic.
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by janesy » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:21 pm

AJ01 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:07 pm

Here! Here!!! Excellent observation my friend. :thumbup: :eusa-clap: :thumbup:

Nog,
I have a question.... (dripping with blatant sarcasm) so all liberals will moan and gasp in horror). :lol:
I've been eating deer meat for more than 55 years, I'm 60 plus. With most of it being harvested by some type of lead projectile. How come we, as hunters don't get lead poisoning from eating the "tainted" meat??? :think:
And why don't coyotes get lead poisoning this way, rather than by the occasional .223 round I send them to remind them how much I like them!! :wtf:
They too are "carrion feeders", and Lord knows they eat a ton of deer.
I'd like to see the control group used to determine this set of "facts" as published. Studies sometimes might get a little 'skewed" because of a certain academic slant depending on who the "overseeing" professor is or was. :eusa-shhh:
Just MHO :mrgreen:
AJ
Contrary to popular belief, adult humans are not typically susceptible to lead poisoning, most get it from prolonged exposure via the workplace. Because humans pass 99% of lead through and out of our digestive system, we take more time and have larger stomachs to process food. As a bullet sheds minute amounts of lead, most if not all of it that would be consumed by mammals in general is passed on and life carries on(bigger pieces we tend to bite and spit out). Further, lead distributed in a muscle could take a lifetime to give lead poisoning if at all. Different story if we breathe it it. I'm not saying it is safe in either form, but one is certainly worse that others. We also don't as a typical rule, but lead objects in our mouths. That's the problem with giving children lead paint items, they do chew on things regardless of what they are made of and their bodies are proportionately smaller and more susceptible to poisoning.

Most birds use small pebbles in their gizzard to grind up their foods instead of teeth, when a pebble is worn down and small enough, it also passes and lands on your clean car. Same would be true for small pieces of non edible objects(without acid to break it down further). But some birds are more susceptible to lead than others

Bird that predominantly eat meat use extremely strong acids to break down food very quickly and their gizzard is typically considerably smaller than the amount of food that the consume at a given time. They also have stones in their gizzard, but considerably less than say a Duck would have. So when a ball of lead lands into a bird's gizzard it treats it like a pebble and utilizes it to help break down food since they have no teeth. And lead is often retained in the gizzard and ground down to the point of being consumed with the very rapidly assisted process provided by the gizzard acid, the lead is absorbed into the blood in stead of passed on as a small pebble. Raptors in general respond quicker to lead poisoning than other species. Same as the Condor.

Do I agree with the article regarding bullets and deer carcasses specifically being the culprit? No. But lead poisoning in birds has been a known issues for a long time, and that part is completely factual. :thumbup:
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by AJ01 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:14 pm

janesy wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:40 am
grouse wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:23 am

Anyway, for some reason (unknown to me) this seems to be deteriorating into a political discussion which is not appropriate for this forum and will not accomplish anything. This was never my intention but I apologize for introducing this subject and will try to stay away from areas that people might try to politicize (If there is a way to do that).
Don't stay away. Its a good topic.
Many years ago, back in the late 70's the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department placed a ban on collecting or keeping Greybanded Kingsnakes. Myself and several of my zoo friends had a somewhat large collection of "Lampropeltis alterna", (Greybands), that had been collected in the wild over many years in southwest Texas. Biologist with TPWD had "determined" that the species was "endangered" due to non-specific locality records of animals, and that the scale color and pattern of different snakes showed they were not a single species but a multiple number of species unlike what was claimed by private collectors, breeders and Zoo's. :wtf: :wtf:
TPWD immediately issued a decree stating "the keeping of any and all Lampropeltis alterna was henceforth illegal, subject to confiscation and fines levied by the State". Only Zoo's with "approved" permits issued by TPWD would be allowed to posses, keep or breed said reptile.
Needless to say this did NOT sit well with me, or my friends. Several of us Law Enforcement personnel. Who had spent years breeding this species.
Others simply handed over their "endangered species" to TPWD who euthanized them and "preserved them" so they could be studied. TPWD did this by the HUNDREDS. (Science at work) :wtf:
Cooler heads prevailed. We were able to PROVE to TPWD that they were wrong. Lampropeltis alterna is a diverse and locality color specific animal, but in no way endangered. Simply things as head scale counts, ventral scale counts, and maxillary counts proved these to ALL be the same species.
The ban was lifted, but hundreds if not 1000's of reptiles were destroyed in the name of science in the 4 year period.

I say all of this just to say, sometimes you have to get out of the lab in order too see what actually occurs in nature. I have now spent over 40 years keeping and breeding exotic reptiles. And I learn something new about them all the time. I have actually had Game Wardens come to my house and ask, "What is this..." :lol: :lol:

My grandkids say I'm a "pretty neat guy". I keep snakes, collect Native American artifacts, and have even worked on the Southern Mammoth dig in Waco.
Needless to say, I don't sit behind a desk. :thumbup:

Never remain silent. Dialogue is how we learn.

AJ
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by janesy » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:36 pm

Just googled them, those are pretty cool looking snakes
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by AJ01 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:05 pm

janesy wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:36 pm
Just googled them, those are pretty cool looking snakes
These days it's mainly Green Tree Pythons, (Morelia viridis). But in my misspent younger days I kept all kinds of stuff. My personal collection at one time was over 350 reptiles. I have kept everything from Gaboon and Rhino Vipers to Albino Blood Pythons to Caimans. :thumbup:
It was a fairly lucrative part-time business at one time. :think:
Now it's just my personal stuff...and some of my grandkids critters!!! :lol:
My wife's an Angel!! :angel:

AJ
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by Normous » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:19 pm

WOW AJ01, you have one interesting prior and personal hobby with critters, very COOL!.
If I ever have a question I will sure as heck will contact you. :thumbup:
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by Hi5 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:15 pm

Grouse said
"Anyway, for some reason (unknown to me) this seems to be deteriorating into a political discussion which is not appropriate for this forum and will not accomplish anything. This was never my intention but I apologize for introducing this subject and will try to stay away from areas that people might try to politicize (If there is a way to do that)."

For Heaven's sake, don't apologize.

Nobody was offended by your article or your take on it. It stimulated a lively discussion and sure helped to show the diversity and depth of training that our membership possesses.

Now, if you really want to stir up trouble, I have a suggestion. If somebody asks what is the best product for baiting bears for hunting purposes, tell them to use lumpy Pampers. Bears, you know, will eat anything.

A few years back I did that. I don't recall anyone mentioning that they would, or had, tried it. Most of the discussion seemed to be around where to find pitchforks, and tar and feathers, and how far away I might live. I think there was even some talk about early onslaught Alzheimer's.

Nah. You don't need to apologize. Thanks for livening up the discussion.
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by AJ01 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:25 pm

Normous wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:19 pm
WOW AJ01, you have one interesting prior and personal hobby with critters, very COOL!.
If I ever have a question I will sure as heck will contact you. :thumbup:
Anytime Norm!
I was lucky as a kid. We had a family friend who taught Biology at Texas A&M (where I would later go) :thumbup: who saw me bring home every critter I could stick in my pocket. He gave me a pair of Corn snakes when I was still in high school. I owe him a great debt. Then after graduating and going to work as a law enforcement officer in a large city in Texas, I became good friends with the guy who was the Curator of Reptiles at the Fort Worth Zoo.
He introduced me to a whole plethora of Zoo people all across this country. Include James Murphy who is with the Smithsonian, and John Werler who has written many books including one called "The Snakes of Texas" where I'm given a footnote. :D
I was blessed as a young sponge to be around such knowledgeable people.
My Dad use to say "I could fall into a vat of S*@t and come out smelling like a rose".
He HATES snakes!!! :lol: :crazy: :lol: :eusa-naughty: :lol:

Andy
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by AJ01 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:31 pm

grouse wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:23 am

Anyway, for some reason (unknown to me) this seems to be deteriorating into a political discussion which is not appropriate for this forum and will not accomplish anything. This was never my intention but I apologize for introducing this subject and will try to stay away from areas that people might try to politicize (If there is a way to do that).
My Good Man you have NOTHING to apologize for! Great topic!!
I'm just an overgrown opiniated Texas Aggie!!! :thumbup:
:lol: :wink: :wink: :lol: :lol: :wave:

I always welcome something to exercise my brain!! It shrinks a little more each day!! :eusa-doh: :lol:
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by Normous » Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:03 pm

That is a very COOL and interesting background story Andy!

I never miss an opportunity to watch a zoo story on TV and see that no two days are ever the same for the dedicated zoo keepers and staff.

Hats off to them!

Sorry to get a bit off topic. :oops:
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by AJ01 » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:07 pm

Normous wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:03 pm
That is a very COOL and interesting background story Andy!

I never miss an opportunity to watch a zoo story on TV and see that no two days are ever the same for the dedicated zoo keepers and staff.

Hats off to them!

Sorry to get a bit off topic. :oops:
To tell the true, I think I started the chase down the rabbit hole!! :D

I agree, we as humans, supposedly being the superior species, have had a serious impact on the others we share this ball of dirt and rock with. I hope that future generations pay closer attention to the natural wonders that surround us, and not take them for granted.
I personally think we have taken a huge step in protecting some of our "natural resources". The comeback story of the Bald Eagle is one such story. When I was a kid, (a long time ago), there were no whitetail deer in my area of the state. Now they're everywhere. TPWD also transplanted Bighorn Sheep to the Davis Mountains here in Texas and Eastern Turkeys back into East Texas where I now live. :thumbup:
I live in a state blessed with a diverse ecosystem. I hope our future leaders take care of it all.

I feel somewhat sorry for folks who have never experienced the wonders of nature. I think they have missed one heck of an adventure!!
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by grouse » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:57 am

I hereby withdraw my earlier apology and would like to add that there are certainly some interesting, intelligent and knowledgeable people on this forum. AJ101 mentioned collecting native American artifacts in a previous post. I've been finding a few artifacts on a farm I own in NE Missouri then did a little research and learned something I'll bet AJ knows, but I did not, Most of what I always called "arrowheads" are actually knife blades. Real stone arrowheads are much smaller than the average item found (I have found a couple of broken real arrowheads). The average item I always called arrowheads would require a broom handle for a shaft and a small catapult to launch. I wouldn't try to put one on a modern carbon shaft and shoot it out of a crossbow.
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Re: O/T. Eagles and lead poisoning

Post by AJ01 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:30 pm

Hey Grouse....I've got some "points" that are so small, you'd think they were just a flake off of a piece of flint. Normally these are referred to as "bird points".
I've actually got a ton of stuff that I have found and then added more that I got from my late father-in-law. He started collecting in 1940.

My wife said to "thin things down"!!! :lol:
Image

This was a war club head that was found about 20 miles from where I now live.

Image

It is very well formed and highly worked. Being from area it's probably Caddo.
Image

I know one thing for dang sure. I wouldn't want that little jewel striking my melon!! I bet it would leave one heck of a mark!!
I have several more, but they are in the typical "hammer" shape, and are made from a darker stone. This is my best one!!

AJ
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