Quill penetration test
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Quill penetration test
I was bored this evening and decided to do some non-technical testing on my arrow setup. I am using Zombie quills (300gr) in my 360TD bows and have been wondering whether to tip them with 100gr, 125gr, or 150gr Trailblazer/Devastation broadheads. Didn't feel like hauling out the chronograph to tell me what I already know for speeds. So I thought I would see how far each arrow penetrated my cheap Walmart Bone collector target at 40 yards. That is my distance from blind to deer. So I grabbed 3 arrows and stuck a field point to match on each one.
Result?
The 100gr (400gr total) stuck itself in the target.
The 125gr (425gr total) stuck itself in 1.5" less.
The 150gr (450gr total) stuck itself in 0.25" less (1.75" from the 400gr).
Conckusion?
I don't know. I own the 100gr heads, thought about switching to the 125gr to match my Black Hornet Ser-Razor 125gr fixed. Maybe I need to get the 100gr Ser-Razor to match the Devastation? I really thought it would be more equal distances between them. Maybe the 400gr is a good power choice and after 425gr the 360TD starts running low on horsepower.
Break out the popcorn and let's have a discussion.
Result?
The 100gr (400gr total) stuck itself in the target.
The 125gr (425gr total) stuck itself in 1.5" less.
The 150gr (450gr total) stuck itself in 0.25" less (1.75" from the 400gr).
Conckusion?
I don't know. I own the 100gr heads, thought about switching to the 125gr to match my Black Hornet Ser-Razor 125gr fixed. Maybe I need to get the 100gr Ser-Razor to match the Devastation? I really thought it would be more equal distances between them. Maybe the 400gr is a good power choice and after 425gr the 360TD starts running low on horsepower.
Break out the popcorn and let's have a discussion.
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Re: Quill penetration test
Not taking into account blade sharpness, target density and all kind of stuff out of our control, I'm curious what results you would see if you shot the same three arrows at 20 and 30 yards.
Its not really a test of what head works best, because the tree different weights change everything. But I do love to see some "real world" testing.
Its not really a test of what head works best, because the tree different weights change everything. But I do love to see some "real world" testing.
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Re: Quill penetration test
Yeah, blade sharpness could be a thing, which is why I just went with field points. As for target density, I was hitting in the same close area of the target and stayed away from the edges.
Too dark now to test, but I will take your suggestion and try the other distances as early as tomorrow. I will also toss a a factory Quill (250gr) with a 100gr field point to see how a 350gr oenetrates.
Too dark now to test, but I will take your suggestion and try the other distances as early as tomorrow. I will also toss a a factory Quill (250gr) with a 100gr field point to see how a 350gr oenetrates.
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Re: Quill penetration test
I shoot the Ser Razor 125's and the real world test is they work just fine and go thru every thing I shot out of any bow I have . I do sharpen them razor sharp . they are great heads and they hold up going thru bone and still sharp . they take some tuning and they fly great. JMHO.
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Re: Quill penetration test
Ah gotcha, I thought you were shooting broadheads.RobD wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:32 pmYeah, blade sharpness could be a thing, which is why I just went with field points. As for target density, I was hitting in the same close area of the target and stayed away from the edges.
Too dark now to test, but I will take your suggestion and try the other distances as early as tomorrow. I will also toss a a factory Quill (250gr) with a 100gr field point to see how a 350gr oenetrates.
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Re: Quill penetration test
I was thinking the heavier arrows would have the greater penetration but your results show the opposite which has me a little perplexed.
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Re: Quill penetration test
I know, right? Last night after I posted I was reading this article http://archeryreport.com/2011/03/arrow-penetration-testing-real-bows-real-arrows-real-results/ and that was opposite of what I was seeing. Like I said, get out the because this is going to be one of those threads. Figured it was a way to get us yacking about something.
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Re: Quill penetration test
Is that target you were using a layered foam target? Or a bag target? I know with my bag target I can get variation of plus minus a couple inches even when shooting in essentially the same areas. There isn't much consistency with it other than it stops the arrows. I think that's why you see all the youtube channels doing broadhead testing are using ballistics gel or layers of cardboard.
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Re: Quill penetration test
Roy Weatherby could explain it!
Seems that "speed" does have a major vote in the trajectory and penetration of a bullet or broadhead.
Take for example a .30 caliber bullets. Each weighing say 165 grains. Both should penetrate the same on a target. Yes and no.
If both have then same initial muzzle velocity they WILL penetrate the same. However, once you introduce speed into the equation, it all goes out the window. Everyone knows a 165 grain bullet fired from a .300 Win Mag will blow an Elk up! However, same bullet fired from a .30-.30 Winchester, not so much. Add longer ranges and the Win Mag is a clear winner. (And yes...I wouldn't shoot a 165 at an Elk, I'd use at least a 180 well constructed bullet).
I'm no expert but I would think that the same is true with arrow and head combinations. If I shoot a 100 grain at 400 fps, but shoot a 150 grain at 340 fps, the kinetic energy from the faster head will cause it to drive deeper into the target as long as the ranges remain the same. It's just science.
I'm not going to dive into the murky waters of which weight is best. It's a personal thing if you ask me. (Which no one does !!!!!) But as long as you are flinging sharp pointy things at around 400 fps, brown hairy stuff will die from the impact of said items as long as WE the hunters place said items in the "boiler room"!!
I know someone is going to say..."Why then do certain countries in Africa require the use of at least a .375 caliber bullet to hunt dangerous game. Once more it has to do with kinetic energy. A .375 H&H with a 300 grainer has a muzzle velocity of about 2530 fps. That churns out 4,263 for pounds of energy.
Firing the .378 Weatherby we see these numbers...factory loads with a 300 grain bullet are around 3000 fps. Notice 2530 for the H&H...Muzzle energy for the .378...6062 according to Weatherby.
Firing the same weight grain at a higher velocity means more energy which translate into deeper penetration.
I don't think your favorite deer rifle can match those energy figures. It's all about matching the weight with the speed.
Not to be morbid, but people like to talk about the effectiveness of a handgun bullet for self protection. Lots of folks love the .45 ACP. We hear story after story about what an effective "man stopper" it is. Bull Feathers!!! The MOST effective handgun round ever manufactured is a the loud barking, hard kicking .357 Magnum.
Morgues, Emergency Rooms and autopsies bear this grim fact out.
Have you never heard the adage..."Speed Kills"???
Just the misguided rambling of an Old East Texas Redneck.
Y'all be safe out there!!
AJ
Seems that "speed" does have a major vote in the trajectory and penetration of a bullet or broadhead.
Take for example a .30 caliber bullets. Each weighing say 165 grains. Both should penetrate the same on a target. Yes and no.
If both have then same initial muzzle velocity they WILL penetrate the same. However, once you introduce speed into the equation, it all goes out the window. Everyone knows a 165 grain bullet fired from a .300 Win Mag will blow an Elk up! However, same bullet fired from a .30-.30 Winchester, not so much. Add longer ranges and the Win Mag is a clear winner. (And yes...I wouldn't shoot a 165 at an Elk, I'd use at least a 180 well constructed bullet).
I'm no expert but I would think that the same is true with arrow and head combinations. If I shoot a 100 grain at 400 fps, but shoot a 150 grain at 340 fps, the kinetic energy from the faster head will cause it to drive deeper into the target as long as the ranges remain the same. It's just science.
I'm not going to dive into the murky waters of which weight is best. It's a personal thing if you ask me. (Which no one does !!!!!) But as long as you are flinging sharp pointy things at around 400 fps, brown hairy stuff will die from the impact of said items as long as WE the hunters place said items in the "boiler room"!!
I know someone is going to say..."Why then do certain countries in Africa require the use of at least a .375 caliber bullet to hunt dangerous game. Once more it has to do with kinetic energy. A .375 H&H with a 300 grainer has a muzzle velocity of about 2530 fps. That churns out 4,263 for pounds of energy.
Firing the .378 Weatherby we see these numbers...factory loads with a 300 grain bullet are around 3000 fps. Notice 2530 for the H&H...Muzzle energy for the .378...6062 according to Weatherby.
Firing the same weight grain at a higher velocity means more energy which translate into deeper penetration.
I don't think your favorite deer rifle can match those energy figures. It's all about matching the weight with the speed.
Not to be morbid, but people like to talk about the effectiveness of a handgun bullet for self protection. Lots of folks love the .45 ACP. We hear story after story about what an effective "man stopper" it is. Bull Feathers!!! The MOST effective handgun round ever manufactured is a the loud barking, hard kicking .357 Magnum.
Morgues, Emergency Rooms and autopsies bear this grim fact out.
Have you never heard the adage..."Speed Kills"???
Just the misguided rambling of an Old East Texas Redneck.
Y'all be safe out there!!
AJ
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming "Wow, What a Ride!
Re: Quill penetration test
What speed are you getting with a 400 grain arrow?
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Re: Quill penetration test
Both bows have a VM string (Force10 32-strand) and have the dBKiller limb silencers and bumpers and the are still installed. I was using the Kryptek bow with 71/71 limbs for this test and last time a put it through the chrono I had 331fps on the BE Zombies with a 100gr point (400gr total).
The Mossy Oak is an identical setup and also has 71/71 limbs. I have a spare set of 79/79 limbs for the Kryptek. I haven't done any chrono numbers with this bow or the spare limbs. I'm not sure I'll have a lot of free time this weekend to try with the 2nd bow or to pull out the chrono.
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Re: Quill penetration test
I checked the target I am using, it appears to be the kind stuffed with fabric.
My Kryptec 360TD with an Excalibur Quill at 250gr (BE brand) and a 100gr field point, then 3 BE Zombie Slayers at 300gr plus 100, 125, and 150gr field points. The numbers are the inches of penetration into the target. Yes, the numbers are right, I didn't typo or mix them up. This was better than the numbers I had in the original post. I tried to hit within the same localized area of the target. I did almost robin hood a quill because guessing the amount of drop of each arrow at 50 yards when I'm sighted for 400gr is a small challenge.
20yd 30yd 40yd 50yd
350gr 5.25" 6.26" 7.625" 6.375"
400gr 6.25" 6.75" 8.25" 6.25"
425gr 8.00" 8.25" 6.875" 7.125"
450gr 7.00" 7.00" 7.25" 8.125"
Not sure how to read these numbers. I can definitely tell that I needed to do multiple shots of each to rule out the target medium being too soft or hard in certain spots. By looking at this, it seems the 425gr mark is a sweet spot with this particular bow. That 450gr one must have been building up energy on the downward arc as the shot distance grew!
My Kryptec 360TD with an Excalibur Quill at 250gr (BE brand) and a 100gr field point, then 3 BE Zombie Slayers at 300gr plus 100, 125, and 150gr field points. The numbers are the inches of penetration into the target. Yes, the numbers are right, I didn't typo or mix them up. This was better than the numbers I had in the original post. I tried to hit within the same localized area of the target. I did almost robin hood a quill because guessing the amount of drop of each arrow at 50 yards when I'm sighted for 400gr is a small challenge.
20yd 30yd 40yd 50yd
350gr 5.25" 6.26" 7.625" 6.375"
400gr 6.25" 6.75" 8.25" 6.25"
425gr 8.00" 8.25" 6.875" 7.125"
450gr 7.00" 7.00" 7.25" 8.125"
Not sure how to read these numbers. I can definitely tell that I needed to do multiple shots of each to rule out the target medium being too soft or hard in certain spots. By looking at this, it seems the 425gr mark is a sweet spot with this particular bow. That 450gr one must have been building up energy on the downward arc as the shot distance grew!
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Vixenmaster strings - Love 'em! | DrStirrup - Good stuff man!
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Micro 360 TD Pro (Kryptek Altitude)
Matrix 380
Vixenmaster strings - Love 'em! | DrStirrup - Good stuff man!
Re: Quill penetration test
I'm thinking the fabric stuffed target isn't providing a consistent backstop. But even then you can certainly see the penetration benefit of adding mass. Where I think things look odd is seeing more penetration at longer distances. I'm not sure how that can be possible since the arrow will lose velocity and therefore penetration as distance increases. A possible exception to that would be if the arrow is still wobbling (not stabilized) at a short distance thus not getting a squared up hit which would decrease penetration. I would think by 20 yards the arrow should be very stable though. It should be stable by 10 yards in my opinion.
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Re: Quill penetration test
It's an equal and opposite reaction. The more it goes in, the more it bounces back out.
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Re: Quill penetration test
So much goes into arrow penetration. Weight, speed, foc, arrow flex at impact etc. etc If anyone is interested, then here is a link to a good place to start.
https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/ashby-reports
A couple comments on a coouple comments.
1) More kinetic energy ( 0.5*m*v^2) doesn't necessarily translate into more penetration. KE increases with the square of the velocity. But when an arrow hits something the impilse resistance forces also increase with the square of the velocity. Momentum (M*V)) , when derived from the mass of the arrow, translates into penetration.
2) arrows and bullets work completely differently. A bullet is designed to penetrate some and impart alot of shock. Best case is a bullet that penetrates to the offside and stays in the animal. ALL energy imparted to the animal. Arrows inflict mass damage when the broadhead stay[s sharp, does not get damaged and passes completely through the animal.
3) Arrows do not "build up" any more speed at any point in their flight path. They slow down from launch until they hit something due to aerodynamic drag
IMO penetration tests like this don't mean too much. I'm not even sure you can draw general conclusions because the target material varies WAY more than you think, and you are not varying the arrow weight all that much. You would be better served to set up your chrony and measure the down range velocity sand then calculate the momentum of each arrow at each distance. Then base your decision on those numbers versus trajectory etc. Personally I'd use either 125s or 150s out of that bow.
https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/ashby-reports
A couple comments on a coouple comments.
1) More kinetic energy ( 0.5*m*v^2) doesn't necessarily translate into more penetration. KE increases with the square of the velocity. But when an arrow hits something the impilse resistance forces also increase with the square of the velocity. Momentum (M*V)) , when derived from the mass of the arrow, translates into penetration.
2) arrows and bullets work completely differently. A bullet is designed to penetrate some and impart alot of shock. Best case is a bullet that penetrates to the offside and stays in the animal. ALL energy imparted to the animal. Arrows inflict mass damage when the broadhead stay[s sharp, does not get damaged and passes completely through the animal.
3) Arrows do not "build up" any more speed at any point in their flight path. They slow down from launch until they hit something due to aerodynamic drag
IMO penetration tests like this don't mean too much. I'm not even sure you can draw general conclusions because the target material varies WAY more than you think, and you are not varying the arrow weight all that much. You would be better served to set up your chrony and measure the down range velocity sand then calculate the momentum of each arrow at each distance. Then base your decision on those numbers versus trajectory etc. Personally I'd use either 125s or 150s out of that bow.
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Stand by the roads and look, and ask for the ancient paths; where the good way is,
and walk in it and find rest for your souls. - Jer 6:16
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[email protected]
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