What Is The Downside To Shooting A Heavy Arrow (600gr+) At Deer?

[DuckHunt]

What happens when you fire 2 objects that weigh exactly the same at much different speeds?

Say one at 400fps and one at 300 fps?

You're cursing that you need better targets because the 400fps arrow is either...

• Buried to the fletching

• Buried beyond the fletching

• Halfway to Timbuktu

[Normous]

• Halfway to Timbuktu

Hey that's my line, I've lost so many arrows Timbuktu bound

[xcaliber]

• Halfway to Timbuktu

Hey that's my line, I've lost so many arrows Timbuktu bound

The really heavy ones go to Timbukthree!
Just messing around, my setup for my 200# long limb bows are 490 grains.

[Normous]

• Halfway to Timbuktu

Hey that's my line, I've lost so many arrows Timbuktu bound

The really heavy ones go to Timbukthree!
Just messing around, my setup for my 200# long limb bows are 490 grains.

Well, if you live long enough, I guess eventually you see everything.

[AJ01]

What happens when you fire 2 objects that weigh exactly the same at much different speeds?

Say one at 400fps and one at 300 fps?

You're cursing that you need better targets because the 400fps arrow is either...

• Buried to the fletching

• Buried beyond the fletching

• Halfway to Timbuktu

I try NOT to get above 355 fps! Anything above that makes me swoon!!

[nchunterkw]

At 20 yards, and maybe even out to 30, I'm not sure the added weight will affect trajectory enough to make any significant difference at all. From 350gr to well beyond 600, I think it'll only be a matter of how far you want your arrow buried in the ground behind the deer. But when you get in the 40-50 yard range, a five yard ranging error can matter regardless of the arrow weight. It's just that the problem is magnified with a heavier arrow.

For instance, a 350gr 16" arrow travelling 330fps has 15" of drop between 40 and 50 yards. Fired from the same bow, assuming -1fps per every +5 grains, a 600gr arrow would launch at 280fps and would have 21" of drop between 40 and 50 yards. That's 6" of additional drop in a 10 yard window due to the added weight. Granted both arrows have significant arc at that distance and have likely shed a ton of speed. With the heavier arrow, knowing the exact distance of the shot becomes far more important at extended distances. If only all the deer knew they had to stop long enough for us to range them.

I agree totally. In fact when I do this testing I think I'll do it between 30 and 40 yards as that is a reasonable hunting distance (way less would take the 50yarder) plus I won't beat up target and arrows at 20!

But yeah in your scenario above, with the 350gr arrow and a 15" drop between 40 and 50, If the deer is 45 and you aim like it's 40 or 50 you will be off by about 7 1/2" which is too much. And this will be worse with the 600gr arrow.

Remember though that the lighter arrow will shed a much higher percentage of it's speed for a given distance compared to the slower heavier arrow too. So maybe 50 yards with a 350gr arrow isn't so wise given all the variables that exist that could result in a "bad hit" (deer reaction, time of flight, flight path obstruction, aiming error, etc). 350gr on a bad hit (shoulder bone) will have a harder time penetrating at shorter distances and the penetration will only get worse farther out.

Good post...good discussion

[nchunterkw]

What happens when you fire 2 objects that weigh exactly the same at much different speeds?

Say one at 400fps and one at 300 fps?

Who wins?

Used this site for the data:
http://www.bestcrossbowsource.com/crossbow-arrow-ballistics-calculator

A suggested target for momentum is 0.65lb/sec

And used real Excal bows.
A 350gr arrow from a Micro 400 should be going 400fps. At 40 yards it will be going 383 fps and has 0.5949 lb/sec of momentum.
A 350 gr arrow from an Ibex should be going 305fps. At 40 yards it will be going 291 fps and has 0.457lb/sec momentum
A 600gr arrow from the same Ibex (using 1fps lost per 5 grains) will be going 255fps. At 40 yards it will be going 249fps and have 0.66 lb/sec of momentum.

Looks like the 600gr arrow out of the lowly Ibex wins.

[nchunterkw]

Interesting.....using that same ballistics site above........

If you have a 335 Micro now and shoot a 425 gr arrow... and are OK with the trajectory etc. ... looking at pure drop you get
30 yds = -17"
40 yds = -31"

If you get a 400fps Micro, and you load it down with a 600gr arrow...looking at pure drop.... you get
30yds = -16"
40yds = -27"

So the same or better trajectory......but a huge increase in momentum. 0.569 for the 25gr arrow and 0.8411 for the 600gr arrow.

This truly would be one single arrow setup for ANY large game animal.

[DuckHunt]

Remember though that the lighter arrow will shed a much higher percentage of it's speed for a given distance compared to the slower heavier arrow too. So maybe 50 yards with a 350gr arrow isn't so wise given all the variables that exist that could result in a "bad hit" (deer reaction, time of flight, flight path obstruction, aiming error, etc). 350gr on a bad hit (shoulder bone) will have a harder time penetrating at shorter distances and the penetration will only get worse farther out.

I totally agree. While it may be easier to hit a deer between 40-50 yards with a lighter arrow, you'd be much better served if the hit was with a heavier one. At 50 yards, there are so many variables that can go wrong that one has to start factoring luck into the equation.

The 330fps/350gr arrow would be travelling 308 fps @ 50 yards with 74 ft-lbs of KE, the 280fps/600gr arrow would still be travelling 270fps at 50y with 97 ft-lbs of KE. While I believe the KE of the 350gr arrow would still be sufficient, it could be woefully inadequate with the wrong broadhead and a poor shot placement.

Yes, the higher poundage bows would be served very well to increase their payload. After shooting my Micro 380 yesterday, I'll be looking to bump up to 450gr on it just for starters. A 600gr arrow scares me around here. With the rocky ground I hunt on, I can only imagine how many pieces a 600gr arrow would break into on ground impact. I've managed to break much lighter arrows into three pieces.

[Boo]

First off, for deer, 600 gr is ridiculous. It is a waste of energy. It serves no purpose an all. Arrow speeds should dictate arrow weight. As a bow's ability to cast an arrow does down, the arrow weight should go up. As the bow's speed goes up, the arrow weight can be raised to achieve certain things. So a bow's higher speeds can be used to carry a higher arrow weight for bigger animals like big animals in African or bison. A fast bow can be used with moderately light arrows for hunting situations that require long shots like Antelope or coyotes. But there's no reason to increase arrow weight incrementally just for the sake of a heavy arrow.
Dr Ashby was right on the money for the day but he is less relevant today with todays faster crossbows. That's the story I'm sticking too.

[XB I GO]

I used to change all different things about arrows that changed the weight. Mostly with my vertical bow but still weight differences of over 200 grains. What I learned was 2 things. There is no guarantee. I hit shoulder and there arrow shaft broke outside the deer. I think the front slowed down or stopped so abruptly it caused this. One time the broadhead stuck but the shaft came flying back at me. Something went wrong with the glue and the forceful momentum in the BH pulled it right out of the shaft. Second thing is deflection. I thought a heavier arrow would go through minor brush, leaves, grass and still work. It didn’t exactly work that way. I wanted to test this so I spent over an hour shooting different weight arrows through a little brushy spot. If the heavy one hits or gets touched by a tiny obstacle, it veers off in a big curve. The further the target the worse off the miss. The lighter ones became unstable and I could see them wobble in Flight. But, they got to the target in a place close to aimpoint. If the brush was more than tiny, the lighter arrow never did get to the target. The real heavy one might reach the target range but could be a few feet off. Tough choices. Also if the weight was extreme either way I could get it tuned in one crossbow, but not another where the velocity was just 30FPS different. I believe you match the arrow to the game just like a bullet. Don’t need to shoot 250 grain bullet at deer when the same caliber has 180 grain available. You could, but not necessary. I think a 600 grain arrow or bolt is too heavy for deer at “normal” ranges under 50 yards. We had a guy use his crossbow from a rifle blind. He was sighted in for 80 yards because he asked how far it was before he arrived. He used real heavy arrows, I don’t remember exactly but I think 600+ grains. Maybe for that planned situation it was helpful for wind and stability. It was otherwise a clear wide open shot. Me, I’m sticking around 500 grains in XB and Wheelie Bow. My Dad goes 585 gr on his longbow out of necessity. The bow is tuned for them.

[nchunterkw]

First off, for deer, 600 gr is ridiculous. It is a waste of energy. It serves no purpose an all. Arrow speeds should dictate arrow weight. As a bow's ability to cast an arrow does down, the arrow weight should go up. As the bow's speed goes up, the arrow weight can be raised to achieve certain things. So a bow's higher speeds can be used to carry a higher arrow weight for bigger animals like big animals in African or bison. A fast bow can be used with moderately light arrows for hunting situations that require long shots like Antelope or coyotes. But there's no reason to increase arrow weight incrementally just for the sake of a heavy arrow.
Dr Ashby was right on the money for the day but he is less relevant today with todays faster crossbows. That's the story I'm sticking too.

Not ridiculous. The title of this thread is "What's the Downside of a 600gr arrow for deer". Your only point seems to be that you disagree. Or maybe that it's not required. BUT that whole premise is based on the idea that every hit will be a perfect broadside double lung shot where MAYBE you have to pass through a deer rib....which isn't all that tough. The heavy arrow is for when you don't make the perfect hit either because the deer moved or whatever and you hit something hard. It will allow you to still pass through....this causing the max damage the arrow can....which results in a MUCH higher percentage of kills and not just hits.

Kinda like a seat belt. They don't make much sense or do anything but annoy you if you never crash.

Google some studies on archery wounding percentage over time. Back when guys used heavy arrows and trad bows the wounding percentage was pretty low...like 10% or 15%. Since the advent of compounds and the shift to lighter arrows, many studies from different states show that it is somewhere around 50% right now. Some of these studies are recent enough to include crossbows.

[nchunterkw]

I used to change all different things about arrows that changed the weight. Mostly with my vertical bow but still weight differences of over 200 grains. What I learned was 2 things. There is no guarantee. I hit shoulder and there arrow shaft broke outside the deer. I think the front slowed down or stopped so abruptly it caused this. One time the broadhead stuck but the shaft came flying back at me. Something went wrong with the glue and the forceful momentum in the BH pulled it right out of the shaft. Second thing is deflection. I thought a heavier arrow would go through minor brush, leaves, grass and still work. It didn’t exactly work that way. I wanted to test this so I spent over an hour shooting different weight arrows through a little brushy spot. If the heavy one hits or gets touched by a tiny obstacle, it veers off in a big curve. The further the target the worse off the miss. The lighter ones became unstable and I could see them wobble in Flight. But, they got to the target in a place close to aimpoint. If the brush was more than tiny, the lighter arrow never did get to the target. The real heavy one might reach the target range but could be a few feet off. Tough choices. Also if the weight was extreme either way I could get it tuned in one crossbow, but not another where the velocity was just 30FPS different. I believe you match the arrow to the game just like a bullet. Don’t need to shoot 250 grain bullet at deer when the same caliber has 180 grain available. You could, but not necessary. I think a 600 grain arrow or bolt is too heavy for deer at “normal” ranges under 50 yards. We had a guy use his crossbow from a rifle blind. He was sighted in for 80 yards because he asked how far it was before he arrived. He used real heavy arrows, I don’t remember exactly but I think 600+ grains. Maybe for that planned situation it was helpful for wind and stability. It was otherwise a clear wide open shot. Me, I’m sticking around 500 grains in XB and Wheelie Bow. My Dad goes 585 gr on his longbow out of necessity. The bow is tuned for them.

Yes!....as you have experienced much more goes into a good penetrating arrow than just the weight. Structural integrity being very high on the list...both for the arrow and the broadhead. To do the work we want it to do the arrow/broadhead should sustain zero damage as it passes through.

Glad you experimented with shooting through brush too and have abandoned that idea. Little tiny twigs have been the cause of many many bad hits for sure.

ANd I'd say nothing wrong with a heavy arrow at distance...in fact I'd say it's better if you are going to take real far shots with archery equipment...but as we've noted here, knowing the exact distance is very important as the weight goes up and the arrow's arc increases.

[Boo]

First off, for deer, 600 gr is ridiculous. It is a waste of energy. It serves no purpose an all. Arrow speeds should dictate arrow weight. As a bow's ability to cast an arrow does down, the arrow weight should go up. As the bow's speed goes up, the arrow weight can be raised to achieve certain things. So a bow's higher speeds can be used to carry a higher arrow weight for bigger animals like big animals in African or bison. A fast bow can be used with moderately light arrows for hunting situations that require long shots like Antelope or coyotes. But there's no reason to increase arrow weight incrementally just for the sake of a heavy arrow.
Dr Ashby was right on the money for the day but he is less relevant today with todays faster crossbows. That's the story I'm sticking too.

Not ridiculous. The title of this thread is "What's the Downside of a 600gr arrow for deer". Your only point seems to be that you disagree. Or maybe that it's not required. BUT that whole premise is based on the idea that every hit will be a perfect broadside double lung shot where MAYBE you have to pass through a deer rib....which isn't all that tough. The heavy arrow is for when you don't make the perfect hit either because the deer moved or whatever and you hit something hard. It will allow you to still pass through....this causing the max damage the arrow can....which results in a MUCH higher percentage of kills and not just hits.

Kinda like a seat belt. They don't make much sense or do anything but annoy you if you never crash.

Google some studies on archery wounding percentage over time. Back when guys used heavy arrows and trad bows the wounding percentage was pretty low...like 10% or 15%. Since the advent of compounds and the shift to lighter arrows, many studies from different states show that it is somewhere around 50% right now. Some of these studies are recent enough to include crossbows.

Keith, would you use a 600 be arrow in an original Relayer? XB has a valid point in matching the arrow to the game but you will be limited by what the bow can efficiently cast. I kinda understand you wanting to prepare for a bad shot but 600 is not required for shoulders other than near or at the joint. There are plenty of guy shooting at the shoulder passing through both sides using 450 gr arrows. At 600 grains you're approaching elephant arrow weights. The downside of a super heavy arrow is flatness of trajectory and the wider margin of error. A 150 lb deer with a 600 grains? What weight do you propose for an elephant? What was your arrow weight when you took the bison? The buck I shot last year was with a 425 grains arrow going 380 ft/sec. It leaned away loading its legs to dodge my shot. The arrow entered very high in the rib cage and proceeded to demo it's spine. If my arrow was 600 grains, I doubt it would have made contact with the deer. I'd much rather prepare for that scenario which is more common than hitting the toughest part of a deer's body. We all.make choices in respect to what if but I think the high shoulder hit is a fairly low percentage one.

[grouse]

"Google some studies on archery wounding percentage over time. Back when guys used heavy arrows and trad bows the wounding percentage was pretty low...like 10% or 15%. Since the advent of compounds and the shift to lighter arrows, many studies from different states show that it is somewhere around 50% right now. Some of these studies are recent enough to include crossbows."

When I googled wounding percentage for deer with archery equipment, I found that most of the studies put the wounded and lost rate at under 20%. The only one I saw with a wounding rate near 50% was by an animal rights group. It doesn't make sense to me that modern archery equipment with adjustable sights, scopes and better broadheads would lead to more than doubling the wounded rate.

By the way, thanks for starting this thread. We need discussions like this in the off season and and we all gain knowledge from the lively discussions.