What Is The Downside To Shooting A Heavy Arrow (600gr+) At Deer?

[nchunterkw]

I thought this could be a good discussion, if we let it be. If not, then I'll delete the post

RULES:
Please don't post stuff along the lines of "I shot a deer with a 350gr arrow and got a passthrough". Not the point.
Also not a broadhead debate. Heavy arrows don't care what's on the tip.

List your PROS and CONS to a heavy arrow. Then folks can respond, agree, disagree or rebut.

Go.

[Hi5]

Downside == Increased trajectory.
Upside -- Increased penetration

If increased penetration isn't coupled with increased cut, what's the point? A "passier" pass through? ? That pushes us towards mechanical broadheads, because extreme broadhead width causes flight problems.

[nchunterkw]

Downside == Increased trajectory.
Upside -- Increased penetration

If increased penetration isn't coupled with increased cut, what's the point? A "passier" pass through? ? That pushes us towards mechanical broadheads, because extreme broadhead width causes flight problems.

Nice post!
I agree on both points...and rebut the trajectory issue with a multi-reticle scope. OR.. if you are using a single point of aim then you are likely doing some holdover already at different distance..so this amount just changes.

Regarding the "passier pass through"...yes, I believe this to be the case on "normal" shots (ribs/double lung). But might the extra weight also get you a pass through you normally wouldn't get if you hit something more substantial (shoulder/spine)?

[Normous]

The added cost of building heavier 600+ grain arrows may not be for everyone's wallet or budget.

Brass inserts are most often limited to 110 grain and finding heavier inserts is very limited for .300 id shafts.
Excellent Ethics custom SS inserts are available from 92 gr up to 400 grains but up the build cost .

Adding double carbon wall inserts adds cost and the 2 part flexible epoxy required isn't cheap either.

One may find a really heavy fixed head but a long heavy and wide bladed fixed heads have not flown well with several customers I know that tried them , reporting poor grouping.

[Bcxbow]

Pros

• Better Penetration
  Better flight stability in wind

• Reduced shock & noise at the shot

• less wear and tear on the bow (especially limbs)

Cons

• Greater chance of vertical miss if not using a rangefinder

[grouse]

Nothing has happened to me personally that would compel me to start buying and installing heavy inserts to achieve a much greater weight. Currently, I buy Black Eagle Executioners or Zombies and thread on whatever 100, 125 or 150gr. head I want to use. Before I hunt, I shoot a field or target tip of the same weight and make any necessary adjustments. Sometimes I shoot one of the broadheads at the target and sometimes I don't.

I've never had a shoulder hit so I don't know what my set ups would do if it happened. With my 350 SE, I once shot a doe at 30 yards with a standard Executioner and a 125gr. Slick Trick. She must have turned her head just as I shot because the arrow went through her chest and her neck. I'm not convinced that I need to start re-engineering my arrows to get more penetration when all I hunt is whitetails and turkeys.

[nchunterkw]

The added cost of building heavier 600+ grain arrows may not be for everyone's wallet or budget.

Brass inserts are most often limited to 110 grain and finding heavier inserts is very limited for .300 id shafts.
Excellent Ethics custom SS inserts are available from 92 gr up to 400 grains but up the build cost .

Adding double carbon wall inserts adds cost and the 2 part flexible epoxy required isn't cheap either.

One may find a really heavy fixed head but a long heavy and wide bladed fixed heads have not flown well with several customers I know that tried them , reporting poor grouping.

Good points Norm!
My only rebut would be that I have used the "weight system" that both GT and BEA have to up my insert weight. Not expensive at all. And keeps the arrow "adjustable". I just use blue Loctite to hold them secure....of course you need the long wrench for changing them out once you install the insert. But....I'm only gonna get to about 600 or 650 with 3 50gr weights and a 200gr BH on my 16" Micro arrows. So it's limited.

I shoot a 1 1/8" wide fixed head that is not long, and weighs 200gr....but I could see where something like a Shark variety BH might cause troubles especially as speeds go up.

[nchunterkw]

Pros

• Better Penetration
  Better flight stability in wind

• Reduced shock & noise at the shot

• less wear and tear on the bow (especially limbs)

Cons

• Greater chance of vertical miss if not using a rangefinder

That's a good list!!

[nchunterkw]

double post

[xcaliber]

The downside is losing your arrow after a pass through. The upside is that you won’t have to muck around with the broadhead and complain.
Really, that’s a heavy arrow that will kill, and if you stay inside your limits on shot distance, golden!

[DuckHunt]

Pros

• Better Penetration

• Better flight stability in wind

• Reduced shock & noise at the shot

• less wear and tear on the bow (especially limbs)

Cons

• Greater chance of vertical miss if not using a rangefinder

Winner!

It's all about striking a balance between the pros and cons. These same Pros and Cons would also apply if you add yet another 250 grains.
So why not shoot an 850 grain arrow at deer? Wouldn't THAT be even better than a 600 grain arrow?

For years I hugged the minimum weight to flatten the trajectory. It's hard to argue with success because it works. Yes, there are times when additional penetration would have been desired, but those were bone hits that proper shot placement would correct.

I agree that heavier than 350 grains is best. But how much heavier? What is the sweet spot? With the more powerful bows (380+), I think there are far more options to go heavier. With the lower speed bows (335-), you can really see the trajectory arc start to grow as the speed decreases. Sure, scopes and rangefinders can compensate but it certainly complicates vertical shot placement at the outskirts of maximum hunting distances.

As long as it's over 350gr, I'm happy with any straight arrow with proper spine and sufficient FOC to make fixed broadheads fly straight. I've found that once I get into the 400-410gr range, just about any properly aligned broadhead flies well so I've pitched my tent right there.

[gerald strine]

I do prefer arrows on the heaver side for my deer hunting.
My 350 se Matrix has most of my hunting hours behind it and my arrow weighs in at 485 grains with the 4 blade 175 grain fixed head on a 2219 shaft.
It is not a barn burner arrow for sure but it has passed through everything I have shot it at.
I feel a 600 + grain arrow is not necessary on deer sized game and that I would not want to give up any more speed than my current set up.
Speed helps in flattening out yardage errors and I rarely ever range an animal I shoot to much movement ect.
I range trees , landmarks when I set up in key directions and then adjust my shots from memory of the pre set marked distances when the time comes for a shot.
I can be off a bit on my guesses but it is what works for me, the bow is still fast enough to hit in the kill zone.
Now if I add another say 150 + grains to this rig my arrow will be quit a bit slower and yardage more critical and the deer have more time to react.
I think for African game and the largest North American game I may go heaver than my current rig but for deer I do not need to go quit that heavy.
I feel squared arrows that fly true with no tail kick ,weight between 400 gr and 500 gr for deer are very adequate and will go through the scapula on deer.
Cost has been mentioned also I do not want to have my arrows costing $40 or more apiece to fling at deer and turkeys at some point things get ridiculous and are not necessary.

[nchunterkw]

It's all about striking a balance between the pros and cons. These same Pros and Cons would also apply if you add yet another 250 grains.
So why not shoot an 850 grain arrow at deer? Wouldn't THAT be even better than a 600 grain arrow?

There is a tradeoff in almost everything in life. As I understand it, an arrows ability to penetrate bone comes 100% from it's weight and not it's speed. Studies show this "threshold" is 650gr....but that was on bigger game so maybe one could go lower on deer....but bone is bone. Also, I think there is a bow efficiency tradeoff. There is a point where you actually lose performance from going heavier as the bow's efficiency of transferring energy to the arrow drops.

For years I hugged the minimum weight to flatten the trajectory. It's hard to argue with success because it works. Yes, there are times when additional penetration would have been desired, but those were bone hits that proper shot placement would correct.

This is kind of the whole point. Knowing you from this forum, I do not think you purposely aimed at those bones Stuff happens (deer moves, tree branch etc) and "less than desireable" locations get hit. Going heavy enough should let you pass through in those situations as well as when you hit the ribs.

I agree that heavier than 350 grains is best. But how much heavier? What is the sweet spot? With the more powerful bows (380+), I think there are far more options to go heavier. With the lower speed bows (335-), you can really see the trajectory arc start to grow as the speed decreases. Sure, scopes and rangefinders can compensate but it certainly complicates vertical shot placement at the outskirts of maximum hunting distances.

Conceptually I understand the trajectory point 100%. But the engineer in me says "let's look at the data" as I'm not convinced it would matter that much. With a multi-reticle scope, you would zero at 20yards, and dial it in to be spot on at 30yards with the 30yd reticle (and 40 and 50 etc). If the deer is 25yards, you split the difference and I feel that is going to be a very accurate shot as both reticles should still be on the deer. SO our max error if you will...would be when the deer is 27.5yards but you think it's 30 or 25 and aim accordingly. (same for 37.5 , or 32.5 yards etc etc.)
Seems like some testing is in order to compare the aiming error between a 400gr arrow and a 600gr arrow. Once it warms up here I think I'll try to do this. I have done some experimenting with FOC and it does not seem as though FOC affects trajectory at all. Trajectory all comes from the total weight.

[janesy]

From the terminal point of view. There is no downside, in my opinion. It's the shooters responsibility to know where the arrow "should" go regardless of what it weighs.

Personal preference... Whatever floats your boat. Dead deer is a dead deer.

Conversely, I can compare two examples within a year of each other, the difference between the two animals was 50-60 pounds.
- One bear was shot slightly 1/4 away arrow penetrated both ribs and lodged into the shoulder. Arrow weighted 420grn, with a mechanical head and it was traveling at about 340fps at the bow.
- the year prior a slightly smaller bear was hit in the same location, however the arrow was considerably heavier(500+/-), also mechanical, and moving 100fps faster. It also stopped in the same bone, except the bone was shattered.

Both bears died within 30 yards and blood was everywhere. So in that case, the extra KN of energy did not help or hinder one shot over the other, in fact both were very effective deadly shots.

I'm my opinion, I believe that the extra weight absolutely reduces the margin for error, but the amount of outside, uncontrollable influences far outweighs the ones we can control. In the field, the math does whatever it wants to do. So I shoot 420-450 which I believe is a happy medium.

[nchunterkw]

Conversely, I can compare two examples within a year of each other, the difference between the two animals was 50-60 pounds.
- One bear was shot slightly 1/4 away arrow penetrated both ribs and lodged into the shoulder. Arrow weighted 420grn, with a mechanical head and it was traveling at about 340fps at the bow.
- the year prior a slightly smaller bear was hit in the same location, however the arrow was considerably heavier(500+/-), also mechanical, and moving 100fps faster. It also stopped in the same bone, except the bone was shattered.

Great data point right here! 80gr heavier and 100fps faster yet did not go through the bone. Lends credence to the study that says bone penetration comes down purely to arrow weight. Maybe the 650gr threshold is the number. But to be fair putting a mech head through a bone vs. putting something like a 2 blade single bevel through a bone are 2 different things entirely.

Thanks Chris!