High FOC, high momentum
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- Montana Mark
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:00 pm
High FOC, high momentum
I was out shooting today (I try to shoot everyday). I am using heavy arrows with high front of center because I am waiting for the problem bear to show up at my place again. They are 18” Zombie Slayers with 110 grain brass inserts and 150 grain tips. They weigh 463 grains and have about 24% FOC. (They shoot great by the way.) One of my arrows penetrated through the back of the target and the tip/insert was missing. My target stopped the arrow and the tip/insert was buried in the dirt a few feet behind the target (hill for backstop). Now, you could just say that that particular insert needed more glue but I think that it illustrates that heavy FOC results in more momentum and penetration. The tip/insert just wanted to keep going! I haven’t shot an animal yet but I’d imagine that heavy tip will pull the arrow right on through. (Had fun leveling my bow on 3 velvet bucks that came into the meadow while I was target shooting. My sons and I should be able to get crossbow deer in the fall.)
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- nchunterkw
- Posts: 2904
- Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:21 am
- Location: Wake Forest, NC
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Re: High FOC, high momentum
Hi Mark,
I think what you are seeing is from a combination of things.
#1 you are shooting heavy arrows. In general, heavier arrows have more momentum and that contributes to better penetration
#2 you are shooting a very stiff shaft that flexes less both at launch and upon impact, (ie easier to stabilaize, stabilizes quicker and then less drag through the target/animal), and that contributes to better penetration
#3 your arrows have a high FOC. This moves the flexure point at impact forward - making it harder to flex at impact, thus less drag through the target, and that contributes to better penetration
The insert issue is definately a glue problem, but your thinking is right there too. Most of the weight is in the insert /head combo so when the target stopped the shaft, the force of the momentum of the insert/head was enough to break the glue bond.
Personally, I'd shoot that combo while hunting - understanding that if on the off chance something happens and you hit a leg bone or shoulder blade or something, you will still have a very good chance of a complete pass through. It doesn't take all that much to blow through the ribs of a deer but I like to build arrows similar to yours that maximize my chances when everything doesn't go exactly to plan. Doesn't give you license to take a bad shot, just confidence that your arrow will have very very good terminal performance in all circumstances.
Keith
I think what you are seeing is from a combination of things.
#1 you are shooting heavy arrows. In general, heavier arrows have more momentum and that contributes to better penetration
#2 you are shooting a very stiff shaft that flexes less both at launch and upon impact, (ie easier to stabilaize, stabilizes quicker and then less drag through the target/animal), and that contributes to better penetration
#3 your arrows have a high FOC. This moves the flexure point at impact forward - making it harder to flex at impact, thus less drag through the target, and that contributes to better penetration
The insert issue is definately a glue problem, but your thinking is right there too. Most of the weight is in the insert /head combo so when the target stopped the shaft, the force of the momentum of the insert/head was enough to break the glue bond.
Personally, I'd shoot that combo while hunting - understanding that if on the off chance something happens and you hit a leg bone or shoulder blade or something, you will still have a very good chance of a complete pass through. It doesn't take all that much to blow through the ribs of a deer but I like to build arrows similar to yours that maximize my chances when everything doesn't go exactly to plan. Doesn't give you license to take a bad shot, just confidence that your arrow will have very very good terminal performance in all circumstances.
Keith
Keith
Stand by the roads and look, and ask for the ancient paths; where the good way is,
and walk in it and find rest for your souls. - Jer 6:16
Micro 335 & 355
deerboyarchery.wixsite.com/trinitystrings
[email protected]
<{{{><
Stand by the roads and look, and ask for the ancient paths; where the good way is,
and walk in it and find rest for your souls. - Jer 6:16
Micro 335 & 355
deerboyarchery.wixsite.com/trinitystrings
[email protected]
<{{{><
- Montana Mark
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:00 pm
Re: High FOC, high momentum
Thanks. I am definitely looking forward to fall to test them out. Here in MT, we can only use the crossbow in rifle season. However, this is not necessarily a handicap for me. Yesterday while I was shooting, 3 velvet bucks came into the meadow (basically my front yard) within shooting distance. During hunting season, I see them more near my house than on the mountain. I would never shoot a rifle there because there are houses and horses a few hundred yards through the trees. I can use the crossbow near my house without endangering or worrying my neighbors. In my opinion, crossbows are the ultimate neighborhood deer hunting weapon (and neighborhood bear hunting weapon).
Matrix Sapphire 325 (forward riser)
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Matrix Grizzly (for son #2)
Matrix Grizzly (for son #1)
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- Deerstalker
- Posts: 614
- Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:18 pm
- Location: North Carolina
Re: High FOC, high momentum
Could you list your arrow length and balance point as I want to compare to my BEEs for FOC%? Thanks
Semper Fi
2012 Equinox
Firebolts & BEEs w Boltcutter & Slick Trick BHs 150gr
S-5 & Boo string, TT trigger, Nikon Bolt Xr scope
2012 Vortex w/S5 & Nikon Bolt Xr (son # 1)
2012 Axiom SMF w/S5 (son # 2)
2012 Equinox
Firebolts & BEEs w Boltcutter & Slick Trick BHs 150gr
S-5 & Boo string, TT trigger, Nikon Bolt Xr scope
2012 Vortex w/S5 & Nikon Bolt Xr (son # 1)
2012 Axiom SMF w/S5 (son # 2)
- Montana Mark
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:00 pm
Re: High FOC, high momentum
I’d have to look up the formula again. I just balanced my arrow on my finger and marked it with a marker and took the measurements. I can’t remember what they were.Deerstalker wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 2:24 pmCould you list your arrow length and balance point as I want to compare to my BEEs for FOC%? Thanks
Matrix Sapphire 325 (forward riser)
Matrix Grizzly (for son #1)
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Matrix Grizzly (for son #1)
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-
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- Location: south eastern pa (bucks county)
Re: High FOC, high momentum
I shot a 110 insert on a zombie with a 150 grain boltcutter a few times that combo shot really good . A little heavy but not that far outta wack.
Vixen 2, metal ibex,Phoenix,sapphire,matrix 330 ,matrix 355 ,vortex and baby grand piano y25 relayer.
Trigger tecs,leupold crossbones and nikon bolts.
Zombie slayers and mostly swat broadheads.
Trigger tecs,leupold crossbones and nikon bolts.
Zombie slayers and mostly swat broadheads.
- Montana Mark
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:00 pm
Re: High FOC, high momentum
To tell the truth, I’m shooting this combo because I already had a bunch of 150 grain Boltcutters. I bought the Zombies from Wyvern which came with 110 grain inserts and 100 grain field tips. Since I planned to use the Boltcutters, I decided to use 150 grain tips. I’m not an expert but they fly great and definitely seem to hit the target harder.longbow joe wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2019 12:16 amI shot a 110 insert on a zombie with a 150 grain boltcutter a few times that combo shot really good . A little heavy but not that far outta wack.
Matrix Sapphire 325 (forward riser)
Matrix Grizzly (for son #1)
Matrix Grizzly (for son #2)
Matrix Grizzly (for son #1)
Matrix Grizzly (for son #2)
-
- Posts: 4250
- Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:55 pm
- Location: south eastern pa (bucks county)
Re: High FOC, high momentum
I shoot a 110 brass and a 125 head out of my 255 fps vixen 2 for the extra wallop. They shoot quiet also.
The extra 25 grains your talking about is not that much especially from your much faster bow .Every one is so worried about speed these days at 20 to 35 yard hunting distance l think you have a great combo .lf your happy with it that's all that matters.
The extra 25 grains your talking about is not that much especially from your much faster bow .Every one is so worried about speed these days at 20 to 35 yard hunting distance l think you have a great combo .lf your happy with it that's all that matters.
Vixen 2, metal ibex,Phoenix,sapphire,matrix 330 ,matrix 355 ,vortex and baby grand piano y25 relayer.
Trigger tecs,leupold crossbones and nikon bolts.
Zombie slayers and mostly swat broadheads.
Trigger tecs,leupold crossbones and nikon bolts.
Zombie slayers and mostly swat broadheads.
- nchunterkw
- Posts: 2904
- Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:21 am
- Location: Wake Forest, NC
- Contact:
Re: High FOC, high momentum
I agree with you and Joe on this. That will hit really hard and fly great!Montana Mark wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2019 2:05 amTo tell the truth, I’m shooting this combo because I already had a bunch of 150 grain Boltcutters. I bought the Zombies from Wyvern which came with 110 grain inserts and 100 grain field tips. Since I planned to use the Boltcutters, I decided to use 150 grain tips. I’m not an expert but they fly great and definitely seem to hit the target harder.longbow joe wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2019 12:16 amI shot a 110 insert on a zombie with a 150 grain boltcutter a few times that combo shot really good . A little heavy but not that far outta wack.
Keith
Stand by the roads and look, and ask for the ancient paths; where the good way is,
and walk in it and find rest for your souls. - Jer 6:16
Micro 335 & 355
deerboyarchery.wixsite.com/trinitystrings
[email protected]
<{{{><
Stand by the roads and look, and ask for the ancient paths; where the good way is,
and walk in it and find rest for your souls. - Jer 6:16
Micro 335 & 355
deerboyarchery.wixsite.com/trinitystrings
[email protected]
<{{{><
Re: High FOC, high momentum
The only shafts I use are Zombies/Spynal Tapps and occasionally 2219s. Inserts range from 92-110. The Excaliburs have been M380,405s and BD400. Shaft lengths 18-22 with 20s primarily used now in BD400, occasionally 22”. Broadheads, primarily Slick Tricks from 100-175, primarily 125g Grizz Tricks and 150 &175 Xbow Tricks.
Now to the point. I’ve never felt I’ve had an inadequate spine issue. Even though I practice out to 100 yards, my arrows have never exhibited “nose diving”. The accuracy has never diminished with more foc. Actually, ow flight seems to become more consistent. I’ve never seen more foc than necessary cause any problem with very stiff shafts.
All the above had to do with inflight performance.
Concerning terminal performance, the heavier the arrow, especially, the greater the foc, the deeper the arrows seem to penetrate the target. That can’t be a bad thing, if the target is game you’re trying to get a pass-thru on.
As the years go by, and they have - I’m 72, the ranges I’ll shoot while hunting have gradually crept up as have my arrow weights.
Now to the point. I’ve never felt I’ve had an inadequate spine issue. Even though I practice out to 100 yards, my arrows have never exhibited “nose diving”. The accuracy has never diminished with more foc. Actually, ow flight seems to become more consistent. I’ve never seen more foc than necessary cause any problem with very stiff shafts.
All the above had to do with inflight performance.
Concerning terminal performance, the heavier the arrow, especially, the greater the foc, the deeper the arrows seem to penetrate the target. That can’t be a bad thing, if the target is game you’re trying to get a pass-thru on.
As the years go by, and they have - I’m 72, the ranges I’ll shoot while hunting have gradually crept up as have my arrow weights.
-
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Re: High FOC, high momentum
Ah i remember all the old debates about shooting logs vs fast light arrows for penatration
- Montana Mark
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:00 pm
Re: High FOC, high momentum
SEW wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:01 amThe only shafts I use are Zombies/Spynal Tapps and occasionally 2219s. Inserts range from 92-110. The Excaliburs have been M380,405s and BD400. Shaft lengths 18-22 with 20s primarily used now in BD400, occasionally 22”. Broadheads, primarily Slick Tricks from 100-175, primarily 125g Grizz Tricks and 150 &175 Xbow Tricks.
Now to the point. I’ve never felt I’ve had an inadequate spine issue. Even though I practice out to 100 yards, my arrows have never exhibited “nose diving”. The accuracy has never diminished with more foc. Actually, ow flight seems to become more consistent. I’ve never seen more foc than necessary cause any problem with very stiff shafts.
All the above had to do with inflight performance.
Concerning terminal performance, the heavier the arrow, especially, the greater the foc, the deeper the arrows seem to penetrate the target. That can’t be a bad thing, if the target is game you’re trying to get a pass-thru on.
As the years go by, and they have - I’m 72, the ranges I’ll shoot while hunting have gradually crept up as have my arrow weights.
I haven’t seen any “nose dive” at the ranges I shoot either. I’m using a 30 yard zero (with reticles at 40, 50, 60, 70). All the reticles are right on but the 70 yard reticle shoots a little high.
Matrix Sapphire 325 (forward riser)
Matrix Grizzly (for son #1)
Matrix Grizzly (for son #2)
Matrix Grizzly (for son #1)
Matrix Grizzly (for son #2)
Re: High FOC, high momentum
I tested two equal weight arrows for Jerry. One had a 190 insert and a 26g nock. The other was reversed. The arrows weighed the same but one had a -5 foc and the other had appx 30. I shot the high foc arrow to 80 yards, the low foc only to 60 yards. Even at 60 yards, the center of the impacts were virtually the same but the groups size of the -5 foc arrowwas getting quite large by 60 yards. The high foc arrows were very tight.