Head Up or Head Down...and Jumping the String

[nchunterkw]

I've not really had a deer "jump the string" such that I whiffed, but I have had a couple at about 30 - 35 yards move enough that I hit high near the spine. Of course there are lots of factors involved, but one thing I have noticed over the years, is that when a deer dies, it's head seems to go into the upright position. (AJ's last pic in my other post reminded me of this). The neck is up more 90 degrees to the body and not in line with it. My feeling is that God made deer such that the natural relaxed position is with the head up and alert and that they need to flex to move their head to the ground to eat. And that's why they can pop their head up so quickly...and do that a lot. We've all had the deer kind of see us and put it's head down to "feed" only for a second before it pops it right back up. SO what does this have to do with jumping the string or moving on the shot? Well, I think if their head is down, they can use it as a lever to help quickly lower their body to spring load their legs when threatened. If the head is up it takes them a bit more effort. So I think the best move is to shoot when the head is up not down. Especially on an alert deer. If they are relaxed and unaware I don't think it makes much difference either way.

Thoughts?

[AJ01]

Never paid much attention to the "head up or head down" thought. But I have caught myself trying to NOT shoot them if they are staring at me!!

I have noticed that when skinning Deer out, the neck ALWAYS seems to be bent backwards or upwards as if they were standing up looking around.
I think this is simply a contraction of muscle groups that spasm in death.

Not to be morbid or disgusting, but I have seen a number of homicide victims who perished during an act of violence die with clenched fist.
Was this a reaction to what they saw coming, or just once more a muscle spasm?

It will take someone with a higher pay grade than mine to answer that question.

Hopefully other folks with a greater knowledge will respond to this post.
But Keith, that's a great question.

[nchunterkw]

Yes, I have just noticed that the "upright neck" thing seems to happen all the time. And it's one thing I use when approaching a downed deer as a visual check to verify it's dead. It was very apparent on the few that I hit in the spine. They dropped on the spot and then died in sight and I watched that neck go up as they expired.

Check out the recent dead deer pics on this forum. Almost everyone is like that.

Just makes sense to me that if that is the "relaxed" state of their neck, then it explains how they can pop that head up so quickly and bust you.

[Chris W.]

Pretty good video touching on that subject: https://youtu.be/foRCrnlj0Ys

[longbow joe]

I have noticed a wagging tail before death on many occasions.

[robertyb]

When you see a deer stomping it's foot or bobbing it's head up and down it is on alert and trying to get you to move and confirm it's suspicions. If you take a shot before it settles down there is a very good chance it will try to jump the string. As for having a head up when they die I would say if you kill enough you will find them in a lot of positions. I have found a couple that were double lung shots curled up like they had just bedded down.

[Carnivorous]

I get them inside 20 yards and let the arrow find its happy place. Head up, down, sideways or backwards it will end well for you...

[DuckHunt]

I have noticed a wagging tail before death on many occasions.

x 2.

Yes, excessive wagging in my opinion normally followed by tipping over.

[Hi5]

Keith I think you may be onto something, but I wish you had skipped a couple of math classes and instead taken a couple of Kinesiology classes. Then you probably could give us the answers instead of posing questions.


I wonder if the string ducking thing might even be variable, depending on what type of deer is involved? I suspect that a whitetail deer in panic flight is propelled almost entirely by the rear legs. Mule deer, by all four.

A whitetail deer, with dead lowered, may well have enough of its muscles loaded sufficiently to push off without first crouching to load. It wouldn't duck, or at least, not as much.

You may have hit onto something that nobody bothered to think about much. If so, you may well have come up with a useful hunting tip.

[Hi5]

Chris W

If I had read the video link you offered before I posted, I could have spared us some bandwidth I wasted. May I make a suggestion, though. Next time you have a jewel to offer like you did this time, title your thread "Pay Attention, This Is Good!"

I am reposting your link so that hopefully, a whole lot more people watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foRCrnlj0Ys

[xcaliber]

Chris W

If I had read the video link you offered before I posted, I could have spared us some bandwidth I wasted. May I make a suggestion, though. Next time you have a jewel to offer like you did this time, title your thread "Pay Attention, This Is Good!"

I am reposting your link so that hopefully, a whole lot more people watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foRCrnlj0Ys

Great video that might get some conversation going.

[wheelsquad]

Most every doe I shoot ends up being 35-50 yd shots on open fields. I prefer head up when given the opportunity, but it's still not foolproof. Spined my 2nd doe of the year with my BD417....she was 50 yds, head up. Watching the slo-mo replay it would have hit her mid-heigth, when I was aiming for bottom 1/3. But she moved enough to make it a spine hit. And she sure was able to drop A LOT the last few milliseconds.

[AJ01]

Pretty good video touching on that subject: https://youtu.be/foRCrnlj0Ys

One of the better videos out there on where to shoot Deer.

[nchunterkw]

Keith I think you may be onto something, but I wish you had skipped a couple of math classes and instead taken a couple of Kinesiology classes. Then you probably could give us the answers instead of posing questions.


I wonder if the string ducking thing might even be variable, depending on what type of deer is involved? I suspect that a whitetail deer in panic flight is propelled almost entirely by the rear legs. Mule deer, by all four.

A whitetail deer, with dead lowered, may well have enough of its muscles loaded sufficiently to push off without first crouching to load. It wouldn't duck, or at least, not as much.

You may have hit onto something that nobody bothered to think about much. If so, you may well have come up with a useful hunting tip.

With the popularity od videoing hunts and with the improvements in camera technology, there is now a bunch of shot footage out there. So everyone can do some searches and decide for themselves. I'm not like the guy in the video...at least not with the crossbow.....I'm not aiming that low. If the deer doesn'y move and you hit that low there is a good chance you wound that thing IMO. I've been aiming straight up the leg (so a bit more forward) and about 1/3rd up the body. Basically a heart shot. If he doesn't move = heart shot, if does a lot, double lung. If he moves a little, top of the heart.

This is good too

https://youtu.be/r_iswMukM8Y

[Hi5]

The part of the video that Chris W posted that captured me was the slow motion movement of the deer when it ducked the shot. It was a revelation to me to see the head come up as the back dropped down. Maybe there is MORE than the force of gravity involved in ducking. The muscle groups involved may fire simultaneously, with one augmenting the other. Speed of movement calculations premised on the speed of gravity alone may be seriously flawed.

If that's the case, maybe a "heads up" pose could result in less ability to duck than a "heads down" pose.

Before we get too far into the best "point of aim", I'd love to hear more about capacity to evade an arrow in relation to "head up" or "head down" position.

There is science involved here but maybe it would have to come from a veterinarian who studied a bit of 4 legged kinesiology.

Keith, you started an interesting thread anyway.